Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP 
Elder
Posts: 2,689 
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on May 28, 2018 19:58:47 GMT
This may seem like a stupid question because everybody thinks that intuitively they know what the word means, but the more I think of it the less sense it makes. Sociology defines ethnicity as the cultural group that one is a part of regardless of descent but that makes no sense. If a white person absorbs Japanese culture completely learns Japanese, converts to Shinto etc. and becomes indistinguishable from the Japanese in every way except his pale skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, and absolutely no Native connection to the island of Japan, he is not Japanese. Then there is descent or ancestry in defining ethnicity which makes more sense to me. A Jew is a Jew because he's a descendant of Abraham. It can't be both descent and culture though because those are two very different things. If a black guy becomes culturally Swedish under that definition than what ethnic group does he belong too? Not the Swedes because he is black, but also not the Africans because he has no African culture. Does ethnicity regard descent or culture? Or is it just a meaningless term like I think it is?
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 28, 2018 20:05:13 GMT
This is decided by the parents!
Or a person on the basis of the ethnic and genetic origin of their ancestors. Shrug
My opinion about this...
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Post by Elizabeth on May 28, 2018 20:05:46 GMT
Good question! I think it just depends on how you look physically to pinpoint which country you are from. Humans vary in terms of their features as animals vary in species of their kind. So that would be ethnicity for us as species of birds for example would be like the ethnicity for birds. Just my guess Shrug
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Post by fschmidt on May 28, 2018 20:42:13 GMT
I would define ethnicity as shared culture AND race. It can't be both descent and culture though because those are two very different things. If a black guy becomes culturally Swedish under that definition than what ethnic group does he belong too? Not the Swedes because he is black, but also not the Africans because he has no African culture. This guy simply has no ethnicity. Even if you choose to define ethnicity only by descent, then someone of mixed race would have no ethnicity, so either way you have this issue. With either definition, this black guy's descendants will become increasingly more Swedish with each generation at an exponential rate as they mix with swedes. Each group has the right to define itself. It is up to the Japanese whether or not this guy is considered Japanese. The Israelites originated with Jacob, not Abraham. The Israelites defined themselves by religion, not race. Race was irrelevant to the Israelites. The jews are descendants of the nation of Judah. Judaism began with Ezra who was a racist and who founded the racist religion of judaism. |
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on May 28, 2018 20:56:36 GMT
I would define ethnicity as shared culture AND race. It can't be both descent and culture though because those are two very different things. If a black guy becomes culturally Swedish under that definition than what ethnic group does he belong too? Not the Swedes because he is black, but also not the Africans because he has no African culture. This guy simply has no ethnicity. Even if you choose to define ethnicity only by descent, then someone of mixed race would have no ethnicity, so either way you have this issue. With either definition, this black guy's descendants will become increasingly more Swedish with each generation at an exponential rate as they mix with swedes. Actually if you were to define ethnicity by descent a mixed race person would have multiple ethnicities.Each group has the right to define itself. It is up to the Japanese whether or not this guy is considered Japanese. That's true but these groups don't get to define what ethnicity is. If ethnicity can be what ever you want it to be than the term is meaningless (which is what I suspect). If that man were accepted as just as Japanese as the Japanese would a Japanese ethnicity even exist anymore?
The Israelites originated with Jacob, not Abraham. The Israelites defined themselves by religion, not race. Race was irrelevant to the Israelites. The jews are descendants of the nation of Judah. Judaism began with Ezra who was a racist and who founded the racist religion of judaism. This is inaccurate the Jews defined themselves as the chosen people of God and defined themselves as the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, children of the covenant with Abraham. Harvey Weinstein (disgusting bugger that he was) may be an atheist (I don't know the dudes religion but I'm assuming it for the purposes of the argument) but he is still ethnically Jewish because he has the lineage. |
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Post by joustos on May 28, 2018 21:11:10 GMT
This may seem like a stupid question because everybody thinks that intuitively they know what the word means, but the more I think of it the less sense it makes. Sociology defines ethnicity as the cultural group that one is a part of regardless of descent but that makes no sense. If a white person absorbs Japanese culture completely learns Japanese, converts to Shinto etc. and becomes indistinguishable from the Japanese in every way except his pale skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, and absolutely no Native connection to the island of Japan, he is not Japanese. Then there is descent or ancestry in defining ethnicity which makes more sense to me. A Jew is a Jew because he's a descendant of Abraham. It can't be both descent and culture though because those are two very different things. If a black guy becomes culturally Swedish under that definition than what ethnic group does he belong too? Not the Swedes because he is black, but also not the Africans because he has no African culture. Does ethnicity regard descent or culture? Or is it just a meaningless term like I think it is? "Ethnicity" is used by different people to mean different things, but I think that originally it had only one meaning: the quality or type of a tribe [ or "ethnikon"], and is is different from "Nationalism"since a politically unified nation can be made up of people with some different ethnicities. By "ethnicity" I mean a type of race (such as generically White; Caucasian in colour and physiognomy), language (Indo-European), which is distinctive in speech and in certain ways of thinking), originally religion (which has to do with conceived and named gods), and culture (shared customs and technologies of living; a political form; etc.). An individual inherits physical and cultural ways of being. However, he may grow to make changes in his ethnicity, may adopt a new nationality, etc. So, an ethnologist is actually a physical and cultural (including Linguistic) anthropologist. The more we go back in time, the more we find an evident correlation between race, habitat, and the culture that a race creates. |
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Post by fschmidt on May 28, 2018 21:12:31 GMT
Actually if you were to define ethnicity by descent a mixed race person would have multiple ethnicities. In that case, I could say that a black in Sweden has multiple ethnicities by my definition, African by race and Swedish by culture. But I agree with that ethnicity is not a very useful concept and I avoid using it. Making ethnicity a synonym of race makes the word completely useless. Since Jacob was the descendant of Isaac and Abraham, this doesn't refute my point that the Israelites started with Jacob. However, not all (religious) descendants of Abraham are Israelites. All (religious) descendants of Jacob are Israelites. And not all (racial) descendants of Jacob are Jews. All (racial) descendants of the nation of Judah (through the mother) are Jews. Jews (unlike Israelites) are defined by race, so yes Harvey Weinstein is jewish. |
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Post by Lone Wanderer on May 28, 2018 21:20:57 GMT
Culture and language but race has its own rule. Even when a foreigner/immigrant is fully assimilated and integrated, many people may just view him/her as a "good" foreigner and not as a member of their nation/ethnicity.
If you are ethnic A and you want to be accepted as ethnic B, then B people should decide about you.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,689
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on May 28, 2018 21:47:05 GMT
Actually if you were to define ethnicity by descent a mixed race person would have multiple ethnicities. In that case, I could say that a black in Sweden has multiple ethnicities by my definition, African by race and Swedish by culture. But I agree with that ethnicity is not a very useful concept and I avoid using it. Making ethnicity a synonym of race makes the word completely useless. You make a good point and show how useless the term seems to be. I was not defining it by race though, I was defining it by descent which is different than race. An Englishman and a German are the same race but are different in lineage for example. And Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews differ in race but have the lineage of Jacob and Abraham.Since Jacob was the descendant of Isaac and Abraham, this doesn't refute my point that the Israelites started with Jacob. However, not all (religious) descendants of Abraham are Israelites. All (religious) descendants of Jacob are Israelites. And not all (racial) descendants of Jacob are Jews. All (racial) descendants of the nation of Judah (through the mother) are Jews. Jews (unlike Israelites) are defined by race, so yes Harvey Weinstein is jewish. Is this a belief of the Muslim religion? |
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Post by fschmidt on May 28, 2018 22:23:20 GMT
Since Jacob was the descendant of Isaac and Abraham, this doesn't refute my point that the Israelites started with Jacob. However, not all (religious) descendants of Abraham are Israelites. All (religious) descendants of Jacob are Israelites. And not all (racial) descendants of Jacob are Jews. All (racial) descendants of the nation of Judah (through the mother) are Jews. Jews (unlike Israelites) are defined by race, so yes Harvey Weinstein is jewish. Is this a belief of the Muslim religion? Which part? Most of this is the belief of all Abrahamic religions. In the Old Testament, Jacob is renamed "Israel" and his 12 sons represent the 12 tribes of Israel. So Jacob is clearly the founder of the Israelites. The word "jew" in Hebrew is "yehudi" and "judah" in Hebrew is "yehuda", so it is quite clear in Hebrew that "jew" means a member of the "nation" of Judah. |
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