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Post by Elizabeth on May 21, 2018 4:56:24 GMT
Directions: If you agree with even one thing on the side of theologians then vote theologians. Only vote God if agree with everything on God's side and with nothing on theologians side. God | Theologians/People | God 1 and 2. You must continue in the learning of the Holy Scriptures because THEY are there to make you WISE for receiving salvation in your faith. It's all from God as the profitable doctrine for instruction to correct others and be complete for God. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) (God on authority/creed) Christians must have no authority over each other and live ONLY by Jesus' example in Scripture (Matthew 20:25-28, 1 Peter 2:21)
3. All sinned and fell short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and only Christ is the example for us (1 Peter 2:21)
4. You're purified by Christ in obeying the truth in the Spirit and are born again (1 Peter 1:22, 23)
5. Fear Him for He can send you to hell (Matthew 10:28) | 1. A. The Scriptures and the Gospels, the Apostolic Church and the early Church Fathers, are the foundation. (Anglican theologians on authority) B. Bible, church fathers, popes, bishops; Seven Ecumenial Councils; Trent, Vatican, and other councils (Catholic theologians on authority) C. The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, along with Sacred Apostolic Tradition. Plus seven Ecumenical Councils. (Orthodox theologians on authority) D. Standards of belief are to be found in the Bible and in the Church's historic Confession of Faith (Presbyterian theologians on authority)
2. A. The Three Creeds, Nicene Creed, Athanasius's Creed, and that which is commonly called the Apostles' Creed, ought thoroughly to be received and believed. (Angican theologians on creed) B. Special focus on Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed (Catholics and Methodist theologians on creed) C. Scripture with Sacred Apostolic Tradition. Plus the seven Ecumenical Councils. (Orthodox theologians on creed) D. Scripture and in the Church's historic Confession of Faith. (Presbyterian theologians on creed)
3. A. Mary was sinless always (Catholic theologians on Mary) B. Regarded as a model for Christians (Presbyterian theologians on Mary)
4. All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catholic theologians on Purgatory)
5. Hell may or may not exist (Presbyterian theologians on hell)
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Warnings: 1 Timothy 6:3-5 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.2 Timothy 4:3-4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. Matthew 15:9 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Note: I was just informed that tapatalk users do not see the side by side chart. Best to look at the website since it mixes it up for you there. :/
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Post by Elizabeth on May 24, 2018 8:41:54 GMT
No! Church doesn't save anything! Not even a bug. Only Jesus saves. Acts 4:10-12 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”The Church is what the Lord called for salvation. Церковь - это те кого Бог призвал к спасению. But it doesn't give salvation because He gives it. He saves the church but the church doesn't save anyone.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 24, 2018 8:52:29 GMT
The Church is what the Lord called for salvation. Церковь - это те кого Бог призвал к спасению. But it doesn't give salvation because He gives it. He saves the church but the church doesn't save anyone. I say that without her there is no salvation .. but I did not say that she is the Savior! The mechanism is described in the Scriptures! -Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen (Church)by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. -John 10 Will you talk about the uselessness of the church and that it is not authority?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 14:06:19 GMT
In reference to the above an implication can be made that there is a time to look outside scripture...I don't think I was clear. The first quote observes passion as an inherent part of marriage. Where? It never says that. And what you quoted went along with what I quoted. If you want to get then bible says to marry. So there could be a time for that if you wish to take the marriage route. Otherwise there's no time for immortality it says. I am not arguing for immorality...at all. I am simply going back to the premise where certain rituals (extending upon the arranged marriage thread) are constructed around inherently human elements. The ritual of marriage, a necessary formation that provides structure to the human psyche, is dependent upon organizing an inherent chaotic element of the human condition: eros. Hence the issue of love, while necessary and ideal in the long run of any institution, is not a prerequisite for the marriage contract or even certain rituals. The reason I say this, is not just to synthesize the previous conversation with this thread, but to observe that rituals give definition to elements of the human pscyhe, or maybe human "condition" may be a better way of putting it, and the strict fundamentalist approach to "love" gives little direction to the various other facets of life we deal with at the abstract or practical level. The ritual, from a fundamentalist perspective, may be "evil" when idolized but in a separate respect it gives us a greater definition and degree of depth in interpretting not just the world around us but ourselves by providing an "angle" from which we can perceive reality in a different manner.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 14:11:12 GMT
“If God is the word, and the word brings division, are we left with one interpretation?” Yes there is one true interpretation and that interpretation is quite literally what the scriptures say. So for example, if scripture says Christ is the only mediator between men and God, the only one who can make intercession before the Heavenly Father for us, then we should only be praying in Christ’s name and only to Christ like scripture says as opposed to praying to dead saints, or Mary, or angels. Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary: Jame 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. “The issue of language is that it is multidimensional and can maintain not just hidden sub-layers but simultaneous metaphorical and literal meanings. The nature of language is strictly a symbolic median where its meaning is derived from the use it observes and this exists through specific frameworks of interpretations.” I’m not about to doubt God’s omnipotence. He can have His word translated perfectly for all time like scripture says it will be. I’m not gonna sit here and stumble over language barriers when God said His word will be preserved for ever. So whatever language I know right now, which is English, there is at least one bible in English that is His inerrant word. I have that much faith in what He said He would do. And which "english" version is it?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 14:44:49 GMT
For the record I am here, in this argument, not to bring peace but "the sword", under the form of measurement and application of the line...the weapon of our time, and "division", under the form of "?" the eternal and primordial serpent which haunts mankind...who is more Christian?...if anything we see today is "Christian" at all...?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 16:09:18 GMT
Without the Church, there can be no salvation because it is the pillar and the affirmation of truth.(Epistles to Timothy 3-15) No! Church doesn't save anything! Not even a bug. Only Jesus saves. The church is the body of Christ in scripture and in the evidence of Christian near death experiences the welcoming into heaven from friends and family gave the participants a strong feeling of "Jesus's presence" even when he was not observed directly.Acts 4:10-12 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 24, 2018 18:15:41 GMT
“If God is the word, and the word brings division, are we left with one interpretation?” Yes there is one true interpretation and that interpretation is quite literally what the scriptures say. So for example, if scripture says Christ is the only mediator between men and God, the only one who can make intercession before the Heavenly Father for us, then we should only be praying in Christ’s name and only to Christ like scripture says as opposed to praying to dead saints, or Mary, or angels. Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary: Jame 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. “The issue of language is that it is multidimensional and can maintain not just hidden sub-layers but simultaneous metaphorical and literal meanings. The nature of language is strictly a symbolic median where its meaning is derived from the use it observes and this exists through specific frameworks of interpretations.” I’m not about to doubt God’s omnipotence. He can have His word translated perfectly for all time like scripture says it will be. I’m not gonna sit here and stumble over language barriers when God said His word will be preserved for ever. So whatever language I know right now, which is English, there is at least one bible in English that is His inerrant word. I have that much faith in what He said He would do. And which "english" version is it?“Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” You do know there is a difference between confessing your sins to a brother or sister in Christ and praying to a brother or sister in Christ, don’t you? Notice it says “pray for” not “pray to”. This is simple English comprehension. I didn’t say “praying of the saints” in my previous response to you either. I said “praying to dead saints, Mary, and angels” because that is what some who call themselves Christians do while scripture says pray to Christ only. “And which "english" version is it?” I use the KJV myself. Why does it matter? Let me guess, you’re going to attack the KJV now?
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 24, 2018 18:26:37 GMT
But it doesn't give salvation because He gives it. He saves the church but the church doesn't save anyone. I say that without her there is no salvation .. but I did not say that she is the Savior! The mechanism is described in the Scriptures! -Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen (Church)by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. -John 10 Will you talk about the uselessness of the church and that it is not authority?Give homage where homage is due; the church would not exist without Christ. Hence salvation would not be possible without Him.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 24, 2018 22:05:56 GMT
“Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” You do know there is a difference between confessing your sins to a brother or sister in Christ and praying to a brother or sister in Christ, don’t you? Notice it says “pray for” not “pray to”. This is simple English comprehension. I didn’t say “praying of the saints” in my previous response to you either. I said “praying to dead saints, Mary, and angels” because that is what some who call themselves Christians do and scripture says pray to Christ only. “And which "english" version is it?” I use the KJV myself. Why does it matter? Let me guess, you’re going to attack the KJV now? Before writing on this topic, you should be aware of what the canonical prayer of the for saints looks like. No one prays to them like to Savior ... I wrote about this a few months ago and youre can not yet master this lesson. They are part of the Heavenly Church which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying) The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ) As for Mary, in Scripture it is clear that she had influences on the action of Jesus .. so continues to this day! Yes, God does not have dead! Your remarks that they are dead people are not based on the Bible.
Does Christ meet during the Transfiguration with the dead Moses?
Did King Saul see the dead Samuel? On the one hand, they died a long time ago ... but God has everything alive! For the church too .. For the Church, there is no death BECAUSE Christ defeated Death ... is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 24, 2018 22:34:23 GMT
“Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” You do know there is a difference between confessing your sins to a brother or sister in Christ and praying to a brother or sister in Christ, don’t you? Notice it says “pray for” not “pray to”. This is simple English comprehension. I didn’t say “praying of the saints” in my previous response to you either. I said “praying to dead saints, Mary, and angels” because that is what some who call themselves Christians do and scripture says pray to Christ only. “And which "english" version is it?” I use the KJV myself. Why does it matter? Let me guess, you’re going to attack the KJV now? Before writing on this topic, you should be aware of what the canonical prayer of the for saints looks like. No one prays to them like to Savior ... I wrote about this a few months ago and youre can not yet master this lesson. They are part of the Heavenly Church which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying) The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ) As for Mary, in Scripture it is clear that she had influences on the action of Jesus .. so continues to this day! Yes, God does not have dead! Your remarks that they are dead people are not based on the Bible.
Does Christ meet during the Transfiguration with the dead Moses?
Did King Saul see the dead Samuel? On the one hand, they died a long time ago ... but God has everything alive! For the church too .. For the Church, there is no death BECAUSE Christ defeated Death ... is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???
“canonical prayer” What is this? I ask because it is not in scripture. “youre can not yet master this lesson.” Why would I want to master a doctrine of man when scripture says to avoid doctrines of men? “Heavenly Church” This term is never once mentioned in scripture. “which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying)” Where is this scripture? Show me just one please. “The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ” Show me scripture supporting this doctrine please. “is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???” Are not our bodies part of the material world? Can you prove with scripture that saints in heaven can and do pray for saints on earth to Christ?
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 24, 2018 22:49:15 GMT
Before writing on this topic, you should be aware of what the canonical prayer of the for saints looks like. No one prays to them like to Savior ... I wrote about this a few months ago and youre can not yet master this lesson. They are part of the Heavenly Church which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying) The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ) As for Mary, in Scripture it is clear that she had influences on the action of Jesus .. so continues to this day! Yes, God does not have dead! Your remarks that they are dead people are not based on the Bible.
Does Christ meet during the Transfiguration with the dead Moses?
Did King Saul see the dead Samuel? On the one hand, they died a long time ago ... but God has everything alive! For the church too .. For the Church, there is no death BECAUSE Christ defeated Death ... is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???
“canonical prayer” What is this? I ask because it is not in scripture. “youre can not yet master this lesson.” Why would I want to master a doctrine of man when scripture says to avoid doctrines of men? “Heavenly Church” This term is never once mentioned in scripture. “which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying)” Where is this scripture? Show me just one please. “The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ” Show me scripture supporting this doctrine please. “is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???” Are not our bodies part of the material world? Can you prove with scripture that saints in heaven can and do pray for saints on earth to Christ? Songs that Baptists sing at their meetings are mostly not from the Bible! I'm not talking about the Psalms! When Christians pray for each other, do they take the words for this from the Scripture ??? 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the degree of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem and the darkness of the angels,
23 to the triumphant cathedral and the church of the first-borns written in heaven, and to the Judge of all God, and to the spirits of the righteous who have attained perfection,
(Heb. 12: 22,23) + Rev. 6: 10
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 23:16:36 GMT
“Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” You do know there is a difference between confessing your sins to a brother or sister in Christ and praying to a brother or sister in Christ, don’t you? Notice it says “pray for” not “pray to”. This is simple English comprehension. I didn’t say “praying of the saints” in my previous response to you either. I said “praying to dead saints, Mary, and angels” because that is what some who call themselves Christians do while scripture says pray to Christ only. Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with the, blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God [pray for us sinners now and at the our of our death Amen (so be it).“And which "english" version is it?” I use the KJV myself. Why does it matter? Let me guess, you’re going to attack the KJV now? They are different, and the King James Version does stem from a specific interpretation of Hebrew, Greek, etc..
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 24, 2018 23:21:43 GMT
@eodnhoj7 Indeed ... prayers to saints, and especially those who are mentioned in the Bible are based on biblical motives. He who was interested in this them this knows it!
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 24, 2018 23:36:34 GMT
“canonical prayer” What is this? I ask because it is not in scripture. “youre can not yet master this lesson.” Why would I want to master a doctrine of man when scripture says to avoid doctrines of men? “Heavenly Church” This term is never once mentioned in scripture. “which supports the earthly church in its prayers (there are many places in the Bible that mention that the Church in heaven is praying)” Where is this scripture? Show me just one please. “The canonical prayer for the saints is a request that they do not forget to pray for us before our Savior Christ” Show me scripture supporting this doctrine please. “is the church separate from material concepts or are you confusing Christianity with materialism ???” Are not our bodies part of the material world? Can you prove with scripture that saints in heaven can and do pray for saints on earth to Christ? Songs that Baptists sing at their meetings are mostly not from the Bible! I'm not talking about the Psalms! When Christians pray for each other, do they take the words for this from the Scripture 😧 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the degree of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem and the darkness of the angels,
23 to the triumphant cathedral and the church of the first-borns written in heaven, and to the Judge of all God, and to the spirits of the righteous who have attained perfection,
(Heb. 12: 22,23) + Rev. 6: 10 There are a lot of songs that churches everywhere sing that are not from the Bible. Are you expecting me to condone of those Baptists who sing songs that aren’t from the Bible only because they’re Baptist? Also, how is this relevant to what I was asking? Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV [22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Okay so this verse says nothing about saints praying to Christ in heaven for saints on earth or saints on earth praying to saints in heaven. Revelation 6:10 KJV [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This verse also says nothing about saints praying for saints on earth. These are those saints in heaven who were slain for the word of God and for their testimony of our Lord. They are asking the Lord when He will judge the wicked on earth. There isn’t anything in this verse that says anything about saints in heaven praying to Christ for saints on earth or saints on earth praying to saints in heaven.
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 24, 2018 23:50:00 GMT
“Prayers of the saints, intercession, is necessary James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” You do know there is a difference between confessing your sins to a brother or sister in Christ and praying to a brother or sister in Christ, don’t you? Notice it says “pray for” not “pray to”. This is simple English comprehension. I didn’t say “praying of the saints” in my previous response to you either. I said “praying to dead saints, Mary, and angels” because that is what some who call themselves Christians do while scripture says pray to Christ only. Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with the, blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God [pray for us sinners now and at the our of our death Amen (so be it).“And which "english" version is it?” I use the KJV myself. Why does it matter? Let me guess, you’re going to attack the KJV now? They are different, and the King James Version does stem from a specific interpretation of Hebrew, Greek, etc..The Hail Mary prayer isn’t in the Bible. And yes many English translations are different, I agree. Like the NIV for example removes verses, whole sections of verses, words, and changes words into other words that have a different meaning. One example I like to use from the NIV is Acts 8:37, it’s been emitted from the NIV(as well as other bibles). Without going too much into this subject(because it is a very tiresome and can take a long long time to discuss) I’ll point out that without verse 37, the whole point of baptism is complete removed from scripture, without it it says you don’t have to believe on Christ to be baptized, but that there is nothing to stop you from getting baptized if you want to get baptized. I find this troublesome, which is why I use the KJV. Most modern versions do things like I listed above, which takes away from the consistency in scripture and produces doubt in those who are searching for the truth. But I digress.
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