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Post by Elizabeth on May 21, 2018 4:56:24 GMT
Directions: If you agree with even one thing on the side of theologians then vote theologians. Only vote God if agree with everything on God's side and with nothing on theologians side. God | Theologians/People | God 1 and 2. You must continue in the learning of the Holy Scriptures because THEY are there to make you WISE for receiving salvation in your faith. It's all from God as the profitable doctrine for instruction to correct others and be complete for God. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) (God on authority/creed) Christians must have no authority over each other and live ONLY by Jesus' example in Scripture (Matthew 20:25-28, 1 Peter 2:21)
3. All sinned and fell short of God's glory (Romans 3:23) and only Christ is the example for us (1 Peter 2:21)
4. You're purified by Christ in obeying the truth in the Spirit and are born again (1 Peter 1:22, 23)
5. Fear Him for He can send you to hell (Matthew 10:28) | 1. A. The Scriptures and the Gospels, the Apostolic Church and the early Church Fathers, are the foundation. (Anglican theologians on authority) B. Bible, church fathers, popes, bishops; Seven Ecumenial Councils; Trent, Vatican, and other councils (Catholic theologians on authority) C. The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, along with Sacred Apostolic Tradition. Plus seven Ecumenical Councils. (Orthodox theologians on authority) D. Standards of belief are to be found in the Bible and in the Church's historic Confession of Faith (Presbyterian theologians on authority)
2. A. The Three Creeds, Nicene Creed, Athanasius's Creed, and that which is commonly called the Apostles' Creed, ought thoroughly to be received and believed. (Angican theologians on creed) B. Special focus on Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed (Catholics and Methodist theologians on creed) C. Scripture with Sacred Apostolic Tradition. Plus the seven Ecumenical Councils. (Orthodox theologians on creed) D. Scripture and in the Church's historic Confession of Faith. (Presbyterian theologians on creed)
3. A. Mary was sinless always (Catholic theologians on Mary) B. Regarded as a model for Christians (Presbyterian theologians on Mary)
4. All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified. after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catholic theologians on Purgatory)
5. Hell may or may not exist (Presbyterian theologians on hell)
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Warnings: 1 Timothy 6:3-5 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.2 Timothy 4:3-4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. Matthew 15:9 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Note: I was just informed that tapatalk users do not see the side by side chart. Best to look at the website since it mixes it up for you there. :/
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Post by Elizabeth on May 22, 2018 7:12:00 GMT
Διαμονδ and fschmidt please look again into the theologian side. The protestants are there as well. Not all protestants follow God. You don't even know if your own spouse will go to heaven Jesus said. The problem is Jesus was upset with Jews because they with their Tumult or whatever it's called and their tradition made God's word of no effect. They added things they shouldn't have and no longer obeyed God but their own writing. Why were there Saducees, Pharisees, and other sects? Because they made their own writings and Jesus rejected them. They are like the denominations today. And Jesus is very unhappy. God only gave the law and nothing else is needed. Revelation 22 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Deuteronomy 4:2 says the same as your quote. The Jews at the time of Jesus violated this by elevating tradition to the level of scripture. But just respecting tradition without considering it to be on the level of scripture does not violate these quotes. Think of the analogy of a nation with a constitution and laws. If laws are considered to be on the level of the constitution then the constitution loses its meaning and the nation has no anchor. But if the nation only has a constitution with no laws, the result is chaos. One needs both a constitution and laws. In religion, scripture is the constitution, and traditions introduced by theologians and accepted by the laity form the laws. This produces stability. People bring tradition to such a point that it becomes law or is above law though. That's the issue. And Jesus said their tradition made His law useless. It should be kept separate from God completely and on a level that doesn't interfere with what God wants if one likes certain traditions to follow in a family or whatever.
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Post by fschmidt on May 22, 2018 7:23:03 GMT
People bring tradition to such a point that it becomes law or is above law though. That's the issue. And Jesus said their tradition made His law useless. It should be kept separate from God completely and on a level that doesn't interfere with what God wants if one likes certain traditions to follow in a family or whatever. If by "law" you mean scripture, then I agree with you and most religions agree. (Remember that "the Law" in the Bible is a mistranslation of "ha-torah" which means the teaching (of scripture).) The only religions that I know of that place tradition above scripture are Talmudic Judaism, Catholicism, and fundamentalist sunni Islam.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 22, 2018 12:17:48 GMT
1 Timothy 6:3-5 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
This is very similar to the time of the Reformation. Reminders - Timothy was one of the theologians and Fathers of the Church .. Apostolic disciples! They preserved the Scriptures. You have no arguments against this fact! The problem is that you confuse the good cheese and old when comparing the present Traditions with the fake ... God has always eradicated fake traditions from his Church. Once again I say that in the Orthodox Church - Tradition is life inside the Church! This life never goes beyond the Word of God!
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 15:09:09 GMT
Trying to interpret God's will in these confusing times. I mean let's face the facts...these are confusing times. There are a variety of Christian Denominations, along with a variety of other religions which exist all of which saying "we know the truth"....we can throw in a few secular philosophies in order to add further complication The issue of religion and reason, maybe better put "faith" and "reason" considering both complement eachother, stems from a continual fracturing process resulting not just from a deep relativistic perspective but the increase in communication between once seperated cultures. The problem of the 21st century is not just a question of meaning but fundamentally the nature of humanity itself. All the "power" we have amassed in such a quick span of time only led to a simple but even more confusing question: "What do we do now?" This question of how to act inevitably leads to further questions of "where do we come from?", "why are we here?", "Who are we?", etc. All of this happens because with great power comes great boredom.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 15:16:06 GMT
Deuteronomy 4:2 says the same as your quote. The Jews at the time of Jesus violated this by elevating tradition to the level of scripture. But just respecting tradition without considering it to be on the level of scripture does not violate these quotes. Think of the analogy of a nation with a constitution and laws. If laws are considered to be on the level of the constitution then the constitution loses its meaning and the nation has no anchor. But if the nation only has a constitution with no laws, the result is chaos. One needs both a constitution and laws. In religion, scripture is the constitution, and traditions introduced by theologians and accepted by the laity form the laws. This produces stability. People bring tradition to such a point that it becomes law or is above law though. That's the issue. And Jesus said their tradition made His law useless. It should be kept separate from God completely and on a level that doesn't interfere with what God wants if one likes certain traditions to follow in a family or whatever. You are right about the abuse of tradition, I have witnessed to some lesser degrees during my time in seminary discerning for the priesthood years ago. In a seperate respect the issue of tradition is one of walking a tight rope considering it does give us structure. A ritual by its very nature gives structure to a perspective and acts a medial point in which we change how we view existence for a period of time. The past becomes present and what was originates in the now so that the acts of previous times are not just stored and guarded in our memories but become inherent parts of who we are...and in doing so change us. The moral problem of tradition, as you pointed out, is one where it is idolized or taken out of its place rather than being used for what it is: a medial point through which we change perspective. Rituals are merely a means to structure a perspective, traditions of course extend through this, but when they lose the ability to give structure then they become dead in themselves and useless. The problem is that we are inherently ritualistic...you can see this in the arranged marriage debate we had: What is the proper manner to go about this ritual? We can observe in our modern times with the replacement of religious rituals with those of sports rituals, which has become a religion in itself, the culture dissolved.
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Post by hellenic on May 23, 2018 0:17:43 GMT
I am an agnostic leaning towards deism, in a sense that I find more reasonable for a creative force to exist than not. But, I cannot know what this force is, and following dogmatically religious explanationsexplanation of it, leads to the creation of man made gods. Im humble to say, I dont know what this force is. But, I follow Natural Law, as much as I can.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 23, 2018 1:28:09 GMT
following dogmatically religious explanations of it, leads to the creation of man made gods. Yes! This is exactly what happens when people start explaining it and then it leads to man made gods.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 23, 2018 11:03:43 GMT
following dogmatically religious explanations of it, leads to the creation of man made gods. Yes! This is exactly what happens when people start explaining it and then it leads to man made gods. In religion, it is impossible to be without dogmas. Sola scriptura - this is also a dogma! Shrug
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 14:33:31 GMT
Yes! This is exactly what happens when people start explaining it and then it leads to man made gods. In religion, it is impossible to be without dogmas. Sola scriptura - this is also a dogma! One that is not in scripture.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 23, 2018 15:14:01 GMT
Yes! But this is dogma and traditional in Protestant churches.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 15:50:31 GMT
Yes! But this is dogma and traditional in Protestant churches. I know, this is why I am not protestant...it does not give depth nor expresses the depth of the human condition which mirrors the nature of God. The problem of the question of faith is that it inherently depends on reason to form it. This alternates to the common sense fact that reason is simultaneously dependent upon faith. In these respects faith and reason are inseperable.
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 23, 2018 16:20:36 GMT
You’re both wrong. Sola scriptura is supported by 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Moreover, Jesus and the apostles constantly appealed to the Bible as the final court of appeal. This they often did by the introductory phrase, “It is written,” which is repeated some 90 times in the New Testament. Jesus Himself used this phrase three times when appealing to Scripture as the final authority in His dispute with Satan (Matt. 4:4, 7, 10). He even rebuked the Pharisees for not accepting sola Scriptura and negating the final authority of the Word of God by their religious traditions, saying, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?…You have nullified the word of God, for the sake of your tradition” (Matt. 15:3, 6). Jesus did not limit His statement to mere human traditions but applied it specifically to the traditions of the religious authorities who used their tradition to misinterpret the Scriptures. Paul said in, 1 Corinthians 4:6 KJV [6] And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. “not to think of men above that which is written” Seems pretty clear that scripture is the authority when you have Christ and the apostles referring to it as the authority and telling us not to put our trust in men and not to be deceived;
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 23, 2018 16:32:23 GMT
DKTrav88 I never said that Scripture is not important! I said that Tradition does not go beyond the Scriptures. those who do not have the right Tradition have their own false traditions. That's why Protestants and neo-Protestants do not have unity .. W ho is the Baptist or Pentecostal saved? Or can an Adventist? Who of them can? Which of these believers has salvation and who is not?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 16:42:41 GMT
Scripture is "inspired" by God, with inspiration requiring a human median that gives form to it under the nature of language.
"It is profitable" is not an argument of authority but one of quality.
Jesus's comments in regards to "it is written" refer also to his own actions as the "word of God" which not just transcended previous writing in the law, but observe the nature of interpretation as extending through the median of man himself with Christ as the Apex of the human condition as a synthesis of God and Man.
The reference to the doctrine of man, and correct me if I am wrong, extend to rituals placed by jewish law which placed a burden upon man in the respect they could not transform or change his nature but rather inhibited any form of freedom (we can observe this in the various Jewish customs and laws in the old testament).
However certain rituals remained such as the breaking of bread which extend all the way back to Melchizidek, the same priesthood class Jesus is "of the order of".
Look again "it is written" is usually followed by a "but..." which observes Jesus as the median and not the writing alone.
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 23, 2018 18:16:41 GMT
Scripture is "inspired" by God, with inspiration requiring a human median that gives form to it under the nature of language. "It is profitable" is not an argument of authority but one of quality. Jesus's comments in regards to "it is written" refer also to his own actions as the "word of God" which not just transcended previous writing in the law, but observe the nature of interpretation as extending through the median of man himself with Christ as the Apex of the human condition as a synthesis of God and Man. The reference to the doctrine of man, and correct me if I am wrong, extend to rituals placed by jewish law which placed a burden upon man in the respect they could not transform or change his nature but rather inhibited any form of freedom (we can observe this in the various Jewish customs and laws in the old testament). However certain rituals remained such as the breaking of bread which extend all the way back to Melchizidek, the same priesthood class Jesus is "of the order of". Look again "it is written" is usually followed by a "but..." which observes Jesus as the median and not the writing alone. “with inspiration requiring a human median that gives form to it under the nature of language” And the language only can say one thing, there is only one true interpretation and it isn’t any one denomination or Church that has this one true interpretation. Christ came to bring division, not unity. “"It is profitable" is not an argument of authority but one of quality.” This isn’t my argument for authority. The fact that it is God’s word is the argument for authority, God’s word trumps all. What I said is that 2 Timothy 3:16 supports using scripture alone as an authority along with what Christ said “it is written” i.e Christ citing and using scripture as the authority, Christ being God, so God is saying scripture is the authority, not the church down the street, not the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic Church, not theologians, not church fathers, not ecumenical councils, but scripture. “The reference to the doctrine of man, and correct me if I am wrong, extend to rituals placed by jewish law which placed a burden upon man in the respect they could not transform or change his nature but rather inhibited any form of freedom (we can observe this in the various Jewish customs and laws in the old testament).” It refers to any doctrine, tradition, or commandment of man that comes from a false interpretation of scripture. “However certain rituals remained” Yes some did, because they were interpreted correctly from scripture. The Pharisees weren’t wrong about everything, they mixed truth with lies just as the devil does, the devil was their father after all. “Look again "it is written" is usually followed by a "but..." which observes Jesus as the median and not the writing alone.” No, “it is written” is not ‘usually’ followed by a ‘but’. When it is, it IS usually Christ, who is God, telling whomever He is speaking to or about that they are wrong and are not doing what is according to scripture.
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