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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 8:34:26 GMT
There is absolutely no such thing as purgatory. Let's look what happens after we die in CHRONOLOGICAL order. Then if you can beat that show the proof. But chonological order can't be beat.
So here are the steps based on the below verse. 1) death 2) judgement 3) heaven or hell
Proof of numbers 1 and 2 above... Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Proof of numbers 2 and 3 above... Revelation 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
So where does purgatory fit? Before death? Before judgement? Or before heaven or hell?
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 19, 2018 9:28:21 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise; there is absolutely no such thing as purgatory. It’s an absolute myth.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 9:30:35 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise. Yeah. Hell is a better translation there too I think but eh. I'm just hoping someone can answer my questions at the end there xD
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 19, 2018 9:48:26 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise. Yeah. Hell is a better translation there too I think but eh. I'm just hoping someone can answer my questions at the end there xD I can answer them. So where does purgatory fit? Nowhere. Before death? Nope. Before judgement? Nope. Before heaven or hell? Nope. It doesn’t fit anywhere. It’s never mentioned nor described once in scripture. To believe in purgatory is to believe Christ’s blood wasn’t enough. According to Catholicism, purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” The problem with this belief is that scripture says, Matthew 26:27-28 KJV [27] And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV [18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 John 1:7 KJV [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Revelation 1:5 KJV [5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Romans 3:24-25 KJV [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 1 John 2:2 KJV [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 4:10 KJV [10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. How could there be a place of punishment for saints to go for “venial faults” when Christ’s blood paid for it all?
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 10:30:13 GMT
In this story below...a rich man died and wanted mercy or to be freed but no second chance was given. He went straight to hell. He asked to tell his living family to repent so they won't go to hell like he did but it wasn't allowed. After death it's all permanent. There's only heaven or hell after being judged. No escaping it and no going back to fix it. What's done is done. And as God always said it's hard for the rich to enter heaven as the below example shows. Looks like his whole family will be in hell if he knows they need to repent.
Luke 16 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
Poor people. Rich man refused to repent while alive and is not offered mercy or another chance after death. He even begs to go back to tell his family on Earth so they won't end up in hell where they're headed but it's denied. They don't want to listen to scripture then they go to hell. Simple.
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Post by joustos on May 19, 2018 16:48:08 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise; there is absolutely no such thing as purgatory. It’s an absolute myth. I am sorry I have to disagree with your [theological] doctrines, but it is my nature to be a critic. To begin with, "Hades" should not be translated as "Hell" (understood as a place of suffering or of punishment), because, according to the theologians who met at Nycea, when Jesus died [assuming that he actually died], he descended to Hades for three days (rather than ascending to Heaven). Since Jesus was/is a sinless person, he could not have descended into Hell. [In the ancient myths about Hades, this place (the Underworld) is where the dead end up before being taken to either Erebus or Elysium (paradise).It was what others were to call Limbo.]
I agree with you that the Scriptures, or at least the reported sayings of Jesus, never mention Purgatory, but the absence of mention does not imply that it did/does not exist. The other-wordly places which Evangelist John mentions or talk about come from the mind of a theologian or myth-maker, who even personified God's language, while others personified God's life-giving breath -- whence the divine Trinity [Creator, Logos, Spirit]. This, too, is a human theological doctrine.
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 19, 2018 18:16:23 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise; there is absolutely no such thing as purgatory. It’s an absolute myth. I am sorry I have to disagree with your [theological] doctrines, but it is my nature to be a critic. To begin with, "Hades" should not be translated as "Hell" (understood as a place of suffering or of punishment), because, according to the theologians who met at Nycea, when Jesus died [assuming that he actually died], he descended to Hades for three days (rather than ascending to Heaven). Since Jesus was/is a sinless person, he could not have descended into Hell. [In the ancient myths about Hades, this place (the Underworld) is where the dead end up before being taken to either Erebus or Elysium (paradise).It was what others were to call Limbo.]
I agree with you that the Scriptures, or at least the reported sayings of Jesus, never mention Purgatory, but the absence of mention does not imply that it did/does not exist. The other-wordly places which Evangelist John mentions or talk about come from the mind of a theologian or myth-maker, who even personified God's language, while others personified God's life-giving breath -- whence the divine Trinity [Creator, Logos, Spirit]. This, too, is a human theological doctrine.
I don’t care what any theologian said. The Bible is God’s word. You can trust man or you can trust God. If you want to trust in what church fathers say hell is, go ahead. I’m going to trust in what God said, that being He’d preserve His word forever. As far as I know, in Greek there is no word for hell, so they used hades instead. So there is nothing wrong with the KJV in translation. Scripture says Christ spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth; Matthew 12:40 KJV [40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. It also says, Acts 2:31 KJV [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. What else could this possibly be interpreted as? Christ time in hell was part of His payment for our sins. Greek mythology should not be used to interpret the God’s word, ever.. as it is MYTHOLOGY, and not truth. I’ve provided ample scripture which makes it impossible for there to be a purgatory, as did Elizabeth. Scripture says Christ’s blood was payment for all sins of those who are under God’s grace(saints) which contradicts with the belief in a purgatory(a place for punishment where saints go who have not been forgiven all of their sins). It makes no sense to believe in a purgatory. Also Elizabeth’s chronological examples in scripture and the story of the rich man are enough to show that there is no purgatory.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 19:37:51 GMT
joustosPerfect. I needed someone to answer my questions. Seems you might be able to. So where does purgatory fit? Before death? Before judgement? Or before heaven or hell?
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Post by joustos on May 19, 2018 21:23:16 GMT
joustos Perfect. I needed someone to answer my questions. Seems you might be able to. So where does purgatory fit? Before death? Before judgement? Or before heaven or hell? As far as I know, Purgatory was postulated by some Christian theologians, not as a stage between death and the final destination, but as a temporary alternative for Israelites (and others) who lived before the time of Christ and could not avail themselves of His remission of original and other sins. The theologians felt that it would be unjust for those people (who actually died in sin) to be sent to hell; purgatory gave them a chance to atone for their own sins. (This is part of the issue of "the atonement of sins". According to St. Paul, the crucifixion and death of Jesus was for the atonment of man's sins (at any historical time), wherefore, there is no need for Purgatory or other individual atonement of sins. So, the theologians did not make any cogent argument for the existence of a Purgatory.)
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 19, 2018 21:28:30 GMT
Personally I like the KJV translation of Revelation 20:13-15 better because it uses the word hell instead of Hades. But I completely agree otherwise; there is absolutely no such thing as purgatory. It’s an absolute myth. I am sorry I have to disagree with your [theological] doctrines, but it is my nature to be a critic. To begin with, "Hades" should not be translated as "Hell" (understood as a place of suffering or of punishment), because, according to the theologians who met at Nycea, when Jesus died [assuming that he actually died], he descended to Hades for three days (rather than ascending to Heaven). Since Jesus was/is a sinless person, he could not have descended into Hell. [In the ancient myths about Hades, this place (the Underworld) is where the dead end up before being taken to either Erebus or Elysium (paradise).It was what others were to call Limbo.]
I agree with you that the Scriptures, or at least the reported sayings of Jesus, never mention Purgatory, but the absence of mention does not imply that it did/does not exist. The other-wordly places which Evangelist John mentions or talk about come from the mind of a theologian or myth-maker, who even personified God's language, while others personified God's life-giving breath -- whence the divine Trinity [Creator, Logos, Spirit]. This, too, is a human theological doctrine.
Frankly speaking, the Bible does not say about Purgatory ... we can call our world Purgatory, but this conditionally.. As for DKTrav88 remarks that he does not need a theologian, I will criticize here too, because a simple sinful person can not say that his understanding of Scripture is true without reference to the experience of the persons of God.(Such people have preserved the Scriptures for us since the time of the apostles) I certainly can understand the position when doubters criticize Christian Traditionalists ... but Protestants use the thesis of -Sola scriptura - and yet they have about 20,000 schisms (different methods of understanding Scripture). Where is the body of Christ? The head for the body gives one mind that everyone knows.
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 19, 2018 21:36:07 GMT
joustos Perfect. I needed someone to answer my questions. Seems you might be able to. So where does purgatory fit? Before death? Before judgement? Or before heaven or hell? As far as I know, Purgatory was postulated by some Christian theologians, not as a stage between death and the final destination, but as a temporary alternative for Israelites (and others) who lived before the time of Christ and could not avail themselves of His remission of original and other sins. The theologians felt that it would be unjust for those people (who actually died in sin) to be sent to hell; purgatory gave them a chance to atone for their own sins. (This is part of the issue of "the atonement of sins". According to St. Paul, the crucifixion and death of Jesus was for the atonment of man's sins (at any historical time), wherefore, there is no need for Purgatory or other individual atonement of sins. So, the theologians did not make any cogent argument for the existence of a Purgatory.) The Orthodox Church teaches that the Old Testament righteous people were in hell and in no other place. (For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.) Ie, before the sacrifice of Christ, this possibility was not, which is quite logical in Scripture. "For you will not leave my soul in hell (David), and you will not let your holy (Jesus) One see decay."? Psalm 15:10The words -hell- in the original sounds like -sheol- The dogma of purgatory was adopted by Catholics at the Florence Cathedral in 1439, i. almost 400 years after the fall of the Roman Church from the Universal, and is not shared by the Orthodox Church as an unjustifiable, ill-founded innovation. It was this dogma that caused a new split in the Roman church (Luther), because on this basis the doctrine of Indulgence arose ... everything else is known to everyone!
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 22:14:57 GMT
joustos Perfect. I needed someone to answer my questions. Seems you might be able to. So where does purgatory fit? Before death? Before judgement? Or before heaven or hell? As far as I know, Purgatory was postulated by some Christian theologians, not as a stage between death and the final destination, but as a temporary alternative for Israelites (and others) who lived before the time of Christ and could not avail themselves of His remission of original and other sins. The theologians felt that it would be unjust for those people (who actually died in sin) to be sent to hell; purgatory gave them a chance to atone for their own sins. (This is part of the issue of "the atonement of sins". According to St. Paul, the crucifixion and death of Jesus was for the atonment of man's sins (at any historical time), wherefore, there is no need for Purgatory or other individual atonement of sins. So, the theologians did not make any cogent argument for the existence of a Purgatory.) Ok. So God said no purgatory and some dummies said there is one. I agree
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Post by Elizabeth on May 19, 2018 22:33:02 GMT
And only God can help with understanding of scripture for correctness. Otherwise those weird theologians make up something called purgatory. facepalm Psalm 119 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You. 12 Blessed are You, O Lord! Teach me Your statutes. 169 Let my cry come before You, O Lord; Give me understanding according to Your word.
Only God gives correct teaching and understanding if you ask Him for it. And that's the method recommended to use in the bible. Theologians can be thrown into the trash. They just make a ton of denominations among Christianity when there should be only one doctrine.
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Post by DKTrav88 on May 19, 2018 22:53:36 GMT
I am sorry I have to disagree with your [theological] doctrines, but it is my nature to be a critic. To begin with, "Hades" should not be translated as "Hell" (understood as a place of suffering or of punishment), because, according to the theologians who met at Nycea, when Jesus died [assuming that he actually died], he descended to Hades for three days (rather than ascending to Heaven). Since Jesus was/is a sinless person, he could not have descended into Hell. [In the ancient myths about Hades, this place (the Underworld) is where the dead end up before being taken to either Erebus or Elysium (paradise).It was what others were to call Limbo.]
I agree with you that the Scriptures, or at least the reported sayings of Jesus, never mention Purgatory, but the absence of mention does not imply that it did/does not exist. The other-wordly places which Evangelist John mentions or talk about come from the mind of a theologian or myth-maker, who even personified God's language, while others personified God's life-giving breath -- whence the divine Trinity [Creator, Logos, Spirit]. This, too, is a human theological doctrine.
Frankly speaking, the Bible does not say about Purgatory ... we can call our world Purgatory, but this conditionally.. As for DKTrav88 remarks that he does not need a theologian, I will criticize here too, because a simple sinful person can not say that his understanding of Scripture is true without reference to the experience of the persons of God.(Such people have preserved the Scriptures for us since the time of the apostles) I certainly can understand the position when doubters criticize Christian Traditionalists ... but Protestants use the thesis of -Sola scriptura - and yet they have about 20,000 schisms (different methods of understanding Scripture). Where is the body of Christ? The head for the body gives one mind that everyone knows. 😊 We’ve been through this; you’re putting your trust in men instead of God. You’re relying on the church to tell you what scripture says rather than relying on God to tell you what scripture says. God said He would preserve His word forever, He didn’t say men would. And again you’re lumping all Protestants into one bucket, you have to use Godly discernment before coming to a conclusion about an individual. Generalizing is just pure laziness
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Post by Διαμονδ on May 20, 2018 10:27:50 GMT
ElizabethBut many of the theses of Baptism made by their facepalm theologians .. you can not do without them, for example the fact that babies allegedly do not have faith, but that's another topic.
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