Ponderer
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Likes: 10
Politics: Balance
Religion: Open to all possibilities
Age: Going on 900
|
Post by Ponderer on Feb 23, 2018 21:43:53 GMT
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us in knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22). This statement in the Genesis account demonstrates the plurality, or Trinitarian nature of God. Notice the pronoun: “like one of Us”.
(The above I found on a Christian website)
Or is it that "Us" refers to God and his alter-ego Satan. God has mastery over the evil side of his nature and makes it his servant? Are we not just the same as God, having our evil side? But is it not true that many of us fail to control our evil side - which often controls us? Jesus was tempted by his evil side and overcame it?
Would this not explain the mixture of beauty and cruelty found throughout the natural world as well as our human world?
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 22:54:28 GMT
Isaiah never says Lucifer fell from heaven. In contemporary literature the mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. This is the result from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which refers to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Though Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star, Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness and scapegoat of Mankind. The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance.
The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). To the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28). Finally, to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exulted" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The word Lucifer is a poetic device, and adjective title for the Morning Star which too was used as a poetic device. The Roman-Greco Lucifer is the authentic deity and has absolutely nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith. Isaiah was a Jew, but for them characteristic of them to write with hints. He wrote about the king of Babylon and at the same time hinted at Satan! In the Apocalypse, the morning star means Christ! Using star isn't special for lucifer. Angels are called stars too. When the Dragon, Satan, was cast out of heaven he took 1/3 of the stars to be cast out of heaven with him in revelations. And morning star doesn't necessarily mean Christ. It had many meanings. Plus Jesus will give Christians a morning star too because He said He will. So morning star is many different things. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26 And I will give him the morning star. Revelation 2:28
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 22:57:11 GMT
Then why did he say fall from heaven here? Isaiah 14:12 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,And he was a bearer of light and goodness qnd stuff before he was removed from heaven. Demons are fallen angels. Meaning they were all angels in heaven at one point and have been removed. Or how do you interpret fallen angels/demons? Ok, let's examine what is really being said here in Isaiah 14:12: "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" Which translates to: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning cut down to earth people who wounded" Where is the reference to Lucifer? To Satan? To an fallen angel? There isn't, it is a poetic device used in reference to the King of Babylon, who the Jews and Christians opposed vehemently. As for my understanding of 'fallen angels' 'demons', well I am not Christian or of any Abrahamic faith so I don't deal with fallen angels or so called demons.
So how does a king who lives on earth...fall from heaven? And NT always says satan was fallen from heaven. We don't have people or kings falling from heaven. Unless people back then had ways to fly to heaven and NASA today is truly behind in skills.
|
|
Etu Malku
Full Member
Posts: 147
Likes: 25
Religion: Mercuræn-Luciferian
Philosophy: Western Left Hand Path
|
Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 23:09:15 GMT
Ok, let's examine what is really being said here in Isaiah 14:12: "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" Which translates to: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning cut down to earth people who wounded" Where is the reference to Lucifer? To Satan? To an fallen angel? There isn't, it is a poetic device used in reference to the King of Babylon, who the Jews and Christians opposed vehemently. As for my understanding of 'fallen angels' 'demons', well I am not Christian or of any Abrahamic faith so I don't deal with fallen angels or so called demons.
So how does a king who lives on earth...fall from heaven? And NT always says satan was fallen from heaven. We don't have people or kings falling from heaven. Unless people back then had ways to fly to heaven and NASA today is truly behind in skills. If you're going to take everything in the Christian bible literaraly then you are going to find a plethora of fantasia, confabulation and metaphor not making sense.
Here perhaps this may help. Babylonian myth has the very first association to the concept of a 'fallen' deity and its association with the Morning Star. The Sumerian king Etana is driven by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star‑gods on the Northern Mountain . . . but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus.
A Caananite myth from Phonecia called the "Fall of the day star" describes the fall of Helel ben Shahar (Son of the Dawn). Another Ugaritic myth called the Baal cycle describes the fall of the god Attar from Saphon and the "invasion of the garden of gods".
In another Mesopotamian myth the god Helel tries to overthrow the great god El. Eventually, these myths became the Sumerian story of Ishtar and Inanna's descent into the Underworld. Here Inanna is directly associated with the planet Venus.
Later, Helel is translated into Greek as Eosphorus/Phosphorus. And in this translation the word means ‘light/dawn bearer’ while Hesperus, the Evening Star is the Son of the Dawn goddess Eos.
"The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but ‑‑ as a morning star ‑‑ juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology." - The Polytheism Of The Bible And The Mystery Of Lucifer by F.T. DeAngelis
The Roman god Lucifer is found in the poet Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses" (8th century A.D.), the poet Virgil mentions him in 29 B.C. and the first mention of the Roman god Lucifer comes from Plato's dialogues from 360 B.C., where he is associating Venus with Lucifer and Mercury with Hermes.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 23:14:32 GMT
So how does a king who lives on earth...fall from heaven? And NT always says satan was fallen from heaven. We don't have people or kings falling from heaven. Unless people back then had ways to fly to heaven and NASA today is truly behind in skills. If you're going to take everything in the Christian bible literaraly then you are going to find a plethora of fantasia, confabulation and metaphor not making sense. Here perhaps this may help. Babylonian myth has the very first association to the concept of a 'fallen' deity and its association with the Morning Star. The Sumerian king Etana is driven by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star‑gods on the Northern Mountain . . . but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus.
A Caananite myth from Phonecia called the "Fall of the day star" describes the fall of Helel ben Shahar (Son of the Dawn). Another Ugaritic myth called the Baal cycle describes the fall of the god Attar from Saphon and the "invasion of the garden of gods".
In another Mesopotamian myth the god Helel tries to overthrow the great god El. Eventually, these myths became the Sumerian story of Ishtar and Inanna's descent into the Underworld. Here Inanna is directly associated with the planet Venus.
Later, Helel is translated into Greek as Eosphorus/Phosphorus. And in this translation the word means ‘light/dawn bearer’ while Hesperus, the Evening Star is the Son of the Dawn goddess Eos.
"The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but ‑‑ as a morning star ‑‑ juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology." - The Polytheism Of The Bible And The Mystery Of Lucifer by F.T. DeAngelis The Roman god Lucifer is found in the poet Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses" (8th century A.D.), the poet Virgil mentions him in 29 B.C. and the first mention of the Roman god Lucifer comes from Plato's dialogues from 360 B.C., where he is associating Venus with Lucifer and Mercury with Hermes. Well, when I take it literally it works and NT backs it up saying in gospels and in revelations that satan fell from heaven. But the thing is I'm not sure why this went to a discussion about the morning star. Isaiah didn't call Lucifer that. He called Lucifer son of the morning. Isaiah 14:12-15 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!So where do we go from Lucifer who fell from heaven (this is in the verse) to a morning star (this is not in the verse)? I'm so lost.
|
|
Etu Malku
Full Member
Posts: 147
Likes: 25
Religion: Mercuræn-Luciferian
Philosophy: Western Left Hand Path
|
Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 23:14:56 GMT
Ok, let's examine what is really being said here in Isaiah 14:12: "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" Which translates to: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning cut down to earth people who wounded" Where is the reference to Lucifer? To Satan? To an fallen angel? There isn't, it is a poetic device used in reference to the King of Babylon, who the Jews and Christians opposed vehemently. As for my understanding of 'fallen angels' 'demons', well I am not Christian or of any Abrahamic faith so I don't deal with fallen angels or so called demons.
So how does a king who lives on earth...fall from heaven? And NT always says satan was fallen from heaven. We don't have people or kings falling from heaven. Unless people back then had ways to fly to heaven and NASA today is truly behind in skills. Would you say that Jesus is referring to himself as Lucifer/Satan, a fallen angel? Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 23:17:05 GMT
So how does a king who lives on earth...fall from heaven? And NT always says satan was fallen from heaven. We don't have people or kings falling from heaven. Unless people back then had ways to fly to heaven and NASA today is truly behind in skills. Would you say that Jesus is referring to himself as Lucifer/Satan, a fallen angel? Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Jesus was tempted by Satan after His baptism because Satan wanted Jesus to fail. Clearly 2 different beings.
|
|
Etu Malku
Full Member
Posts: 147
Likes: 25
Religion: Mercuræn-Luciferian
Philosophy: Western Left Hand Path
|
Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 23:31:35 GMT
Would you say that Jesus is referring to himself as Lucifer/Satan, a fallen angel? Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Jesus was tempted by Satan after His baptism because Satan wanted Jesus to fail. Clearly 2 different beings. This fella does a good job of explaining how the Roman-Greco Lucifer is not the word Lucifer in the Christian bible.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 23:40:50 GMT
Jesus was tempted by Satan after His baptism because Satan wanted Jesus to fail. Clearly 2 different beings. This fella does a good job of explaining how the Roman-Greco Lucifer is not the word Lucifer in the Christian bible. Ok, but this is just an outside opinion while bible ties Lucifer to Satan. Fallen from heaven is used in a negative way in bible like kicked out because you didn't deserve to be there. Jesus however was sent from heaven and then returned to heaven. Lucifer and other fallen angels never returned. Lucifer was son of the morning it says in bible and bible calls Jesus Son of God. Lucifer's title is quite weak as compared to the title of Jesus. Lucifer portrayed negatively and Jesus portrayed positively. Shrug
|
|
Etu Malku
Full Member
Posts: 147
Likes: 25
Religion: Mercuræn-Luciferian
Philosophy: Western Left Hand Path
|
Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 23:48:28 GMT
This fella does a good job of explaining how the Roman-Greco Lucifer is not the word Lucifer in the Christian bible. Ok, but this is just an outside opinion while bible ties Lucifer to Satan. Fallen from heaven is used in a negative way in bible like kicked out because you didn't deserve to be there. Jesus however was sent from heaven and then returned to heaven. Lucifer and other fallen angels never returned. Lucifer was son of the morning it says in bible and bible calls Jesus Son of God. Lucifer's title is quite weak as compared to the title of Jesus. Lucifer portrayed negatively and Jesus portrayed positively. I really can't help you understand this any further.
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 2, 2018 1:55:59 GMT
The Bible defines and explains itself. You don’t use extra-biblical sources to define or explain the Bible, ever.
Luke 10:18 KJV [18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Revelation 12:9 KJV [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Isaiah 14:12 KJV [12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Matthew 12:24-26 KJV [24] But when the Pharisees heard it , they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. [25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: [26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Christ is not Satan/Lucifer.
|
|
|
Post by theringdingster on Jul 2, 2018 5:26:21 GMT
In response to the posts above, of which I do not think I could quote in totality: Lucifer is an angel, a creation of God, and a completely separate entity from God. The poetry of biblical texts and various translations may give some misdirection as to the nature of what Satan is and the process by which he was separated from the Kingdom of Heaven. Angels, at their creation, were given a choice as to if they were to serve God in the Kingdom of Heaven, or be expelled from it. Satan chose to be expelled, thus he was cast into the nothingness which is Hell. God is the master of all things, but all of the brokenness of the world is because of the choice that of both angels and humanity made to turn away from God and to seek their own will rather than His.
|
|
|
Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 2, 2018 5:50:08 GMT
The Bible defines and explains itself. You don’t use extra-biblical sources to define or explain the Bible, ever. I won't argue with all of your statements, but erroneous statements need to be removed! If that's true why he's a Methodist, another Adventist, a third charismatic, and so forth? They all use only the Bible! Law of nature...without the true key the doors do not work!
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 2, 2018 9:07:23 GMT
The Bible defines and explains itself. You don’t use extra-biblical sources to define or explain the Bible, ever. I won't argue with all of your statements, but erroneous statements need to be removed! If that's true why he's a Methodist, another Adventist, a third charismatic, and so forth? They all use only the Bible! Law of nature...without the true key the doors do not work! What?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 12:37:15 GMT
There is no Trinity in the Bible. What is there in Genesis-1 is the two supreme gods, the Elohim, who created Man in their own image: one male and one female!!!! The Biblical Elohim come from the Canaanite religion (written about at Ugarit in Middle or "Phoenician" Canaan, a thousand years earlier). Il [El in Hebrew] had aspects or offsprings or administrators by various names: Mika-Il, Gabri-Il, Satan-Il, and the rest, who are called archangels in the Christian religion, where Satan is the fallen archangel. In Genesis-2, Moses imposes monotheism on his fellow Jews by reporting that the divine Yahweh [Yahweh Elohim, mistranslated as "the God Lord"] was a jealous god who demanded allegiance from the People He delivered from Egypt. Nevertheless, the Bible writers recognize the fact that there were other gods in the Middle East. In fact, at one point Yahweh is begged to demonstrate his greater power over other gods.// Since Canaanite is a mixture of Indo-European and Arabic [the proto-Semitic language], it is possible that the name "satan" is a corruption of the local Greek "sathe"(with the letter Heta) which is a synonym of Gr. Peos {Penis in Latin}. So, Satan may have been the name of Il's [El's] reproductive organ, which so tempted Eve in the Biblical garden. The penis is often represented by a snake or serpent. El or Eloah in Semitic language means God! Eloh im - this is the plural!For example - Malach and Malach im - Angel and angels! Yes, this is true. There was a semitic god, melchizedek, while ELOHIM is GOD EL of cannites. Not to forget, both the regions, from where thees gods have emerged, the old indo european people had kingdoms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MelchizedekIn Christianity, according to the Epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus Christ is identified as "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek", and so Jesus assumes the role of High Priest once and for all. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 12:53:03 GMT
Satan himself was an angel, and once was true devotee of the GOD. But he deviated from the path of wisdom, and after this, wanted to establish his kingdom, therefore, he deviated the followerd of god and asked them to do what he says, worship him, and people will be RICH MATERIASTICALLY. However, worshippers of SATANS are SPIRITUALLY HOLLOW. And it is all the follower of satanic cults, who are ruling today. These are known as mlechhas in sanskrit. I don't know, whether these translations by people of subcontinent is correct, but the old aryans RISHI, according to the people of india, have documented these. However, there are certain verses which do talk about this www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03189.htmAnd they will frequently save themselves from anxiety by such deeds, and even glory in them. And the whole world will be filled with mleccha behaviour and notions and ceremonies, and sacrifices will cease and joy will be nowhere and general rejoicing will disappear. And men will rob the possession of helpless persons of those that are friendless and of wisdoms also. And, possessed of small energy and strength, without knowledge and given to avarice and folly and sinful practices men will accept with joy the gifts made by wicked people with words of contempt. And, O son of Kunti, the kings of the earth, with hearts wedded to sin without knowledge and always boastful of their wisdom, will challenge one another from desire of taking one another's life. And the Kshatriyas also towards the end of such a period will become the thorns of the earth. And filled with avarice and swelling with pride and vanity and, unable and unwilling to protect (their subjects), they will take pleasure in inflicting punishments only. And attacking and repeating their attacks upon the good and the honest, and feeling no pity for the latter, even when they will cry in grief, the Kshatriyas will, O Bharata, rob these of their p. 388 wives and wealth. And no one will ask for a girl (for purposes of marriage) and no one will give away a girl (for such purposes), but the girls will themselves choose their lords, when the end of the Yuga comes. And the kings of the earth with souls steeped in ignorance, and discontented with what they have, will at such a time, rob their subjects by every means in their power. And without doubt the whole world will be mlecchified. This is from the narration of mahabharata, by Sage Markandeya, and is attested, as per wikipedia, in which he described the nature and charachteristics of the people, in this epoch of time, which is known as KALIYUGA in Sanskrit. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vana_ParvaMarkandeya presents the story of yugas (Kreta, Treta, Dapara and Kali yugas), and of Vami horses. Through Chapters 200 to 206, the parva offers contrasting views - both traditional and ritualistic, as well as knowledge and personal development - on vice and virtues.[13] The parva, in Chapters 207-211, presents one of the many discussions on Karma doctrine, in Mahabharata. Chapters 211 to 215 explain the relationship between self discipline, virtues and qualities (sattva, rajas and tamas), how these qualities enables one to achieve knowledge of the supreme spirit. Markandeya-Samasya parva recites the story of Vrihaspati and of Skanda.
|
|