Ponderer
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Post by Ponderer on Feb 23, 2018 21:43:53 GMT
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us in knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22). This statement in the Genesis account demonstrates the plurality, or Trinitarian nature of God. Notice the pronoun: “like one of Us”.
(The above I found on a Christian website)
Or is it that "Us" refers to God and his alter-ego Satan. God has mastery over the evil side of his nature and makes it his servant? Are we not just the same as God, having our evil side? But is it not true that many of us fail to control our evil side - which often controls us? Jesus was tempted by his evil side and overcame it?
Would this not explain the mixture of beauty and cruelty found throughout the natural world as well as our human world?
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treez
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Post by treez on Jul 1, 2018 12:59:20 GMT
Everything is apocrypha until proven otherwise in my mind. There's so many bibles now, and none contain the book of solomon which is my opinion, by far the most interesting! Where is it stated/verified that: 1) Lucifer was an angel in Abrahamic cosmology?
2) The name of Satan before this 'fall' was Lucifer? 3) Lucifer is anything other than a poetic device used by many authors symbolizing the Morning Star?
I'm pretty sure that's what the video was about.
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Etu Malku
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Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 13:22:54 GMT
Where is it stated/verified that: 1) Lucifer was an angel in Abrahamic cosmology?
2) The name of Satan before this 'fall' was Lucifer? 3) Lucifer is anything other than a poetic device used by many authors symbolizing the Morning Star?
I'm pretty sure that's what the video was about. I watched it, and it doesn't verify anything I asked. If you watched it then maybe you can answer my questions?
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treez
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Post by treez on Jul 1, 2018 13:55:21 GMT
I'm pretty sure that's what the video was about. I watched it, and it doesn't verify anything I asked. If you watched it then maybe you can answer my questions? Well, no. Because The video was not about that. It's trying to piece together a theory from passages in the bible in order to achieve an accurate historical record of the claimed divine events. But I can explain Lucifer as: As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 14:01:36 GMT
Everything is apocrypha until proven otherwise in my mind. There's so many bibles now, and none contain the book of solomon which is my opinion, by far the most interesting! Where is it stated/verified that: 1) Lucifer was an angel in Abrahamic cosmology?
2) The name of Satan before this 'fall' was Lucifer? 3) Lucifer is anything other than a poetic device used by many authors symbolizing the Morning Star? This should answer all 3 questions. Isaiah 14:12-15 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
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Etu Malku
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Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 18:27:06 GMT
Where is it stated/verified that: 1) Lucifer was an angel in Abrahamic cosmology?
2) The name of Satan before this 'fall' was Lucifer? 3) Lucifer is anything other than a poetic device used by many authors symbolizing the Morning Star? This should answer all 3 questions. Isaiah 14:12-15 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. It would clear it up if any of it was referring to Lucifer, but it's not. It's referring to the Babylonian King Nebuchedezzner and referencing the Morning Star. The term lucifer or the name Lucifer didn’t even exist in the Biblical ages, the Old Testament was written primarily in Hebrew, so the word Lucifer would not have been in their language. They used the word 'Helel' as previously mentioned. In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definitive Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation. It was St. Jerome who placed the word Lucifer into the Bible Isaiah 14:12 (Vulgate translation): "Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries" The association is clearly in regards to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar and is in reference to the Morning Star which is a title that Jesus uses for himself as well. Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." In the Abrahamic bible the word lucifer is being used in its adjective form to describe something or someone. The deified personification of the Morning Star / Lucifer began and ended in ancient Rome.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 18:30:29 GMT
This should answer all 3 questions. Isaiah 14:12-15 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. It would clear it up if any of it was referring to Lucifer, but it's not. It's referring to the Babylonian King Nebuchedezzner and referencing the Morning Star. The term lucifer or the name Lucifer didn’t even exist in the Biblical ages, the Old Testament was written primarily in Hebrew, so the word Lucifer would not have been in their language. They used the word 'Helel' as previously mentioned. In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definitive Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation. It was St. Jerome who placed the word Lucifer into the Bible Isaiah 14:12 (Vulgate translation): "Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries" The association is clearly in regards to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar and is in reference to the Morning Star which is a title that Jesus uses for himself as well. Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." In the Abrahamic bible the word lucifer is being used in its adjective form to describe something or someone. The deified personification of the Morning Star / Lucifer began and ended in ancient Rome. Not in Christianity. In Christianity, Satan named Lucifer, was thrown out of heaven as those verses state and Jesus confirming it below. Luke 10:18 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
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Etu Malku
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Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 18:34:02 GMT
The Morning Star idea goes further back than Christianity, and when the words Lucifer or Morning Star are used it is with the intention of meaning 'in a Fallen state' as the Morning Star has always been associated with a failed attempt at usurping a higher deity.
Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring"). "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Jerome (and some others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan in addition to the king of Babylon, and because of this the use the word "lucifer" made the transition from a term referring to Venus to also refer to Satan. In other words, it was because of some peoples' interpretation of the passage that "Lucifer", the "morning star", began to be thought of as referring to Satan in addition to its existing meaning.
The Abrahamic Satan has a home in Abrahamic cosmology and scriptures when these scriptures refer to the devil they are referring to Satan, not Lucifer. Satan and Lucifer are not the same things.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 18:36:37 GMT
The Morning Star idea goes further back than Christianity, and when the words Lucifer or Morning Star are used it is with the intention of meaning 'in a Fallen state' as the Morning Star has always been associated with a failed attempt at usurping a higher deity. Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring"). "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Jerome (and some others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan in addition to the king of Babylon, and because of this the use the word "lucifer" made the transition from a term referring to Venus to also refer to Satan. In other words, it was because of some peoples' interpretation of the passage that "Lucifer", the "morning star", began to be thought of as referring to Satan in addition to its existing meaning. The Abrahamic Satan has a home in Abrahamic cosmology and scriptures when these scriptures refer to the devil they are referring to Satan, not Lucifer. Satan and Lucifer are not the same things. So you're saying when Isaiah said Lucifer fell from heaven and when Jesus said Satan fell from heaven it means two beings actually fell from heaven?
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Etu Malku
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Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 22:00:45 GMT
The Morning Star idea goes further back than Christianity, and when the words Lucifer or Morning Star are used it is with the intention of meaning 'in a Fallen state' as the Morning Star has always been associated with a failed attempt at usurping a higher deity. Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring"). "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Jerome (and some others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan in addition to the king of Babylon, and because of this the use the word "lucifer" made the transition from a term referring to Venus to also refer to Satan. In other words, it was because of some peoples' interpretation of the passage that "Lucifer", the "morning star", began to be thought of as referring to Satan in addition to its existing meaning. The Abrahamic Satan has a home in Abrahamic cosmology and scriptures when these scriptures refer to the devil they are referring to Satan, not Lucifer. Satan and Lucifer are not the same things. So you're saying when Isaiah said Lucifer fell from heaven and when Jesus said Satan fell from heaven it means two beings actually fell from heaven? Isaiah never says Lucifer fell from heaven. In contemporary literature the mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. This is the result from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which refers to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Though Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star, Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness and scapegoat of Mankind. The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance.
The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). To the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28). Finally, to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exulted" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The word Lucifer is a poetic device, and adjective title for the Morning Star which too was used as a poetic device. The Roman-Greco Lucifer is the authentic deity and has absolutely nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 22:09:51 GMT
So you're saying when Isaiah said Lucifer fell from heaven and when Jesus said Satan fell from heaven it means two beings actually fell from heaven? Isaiah never says Lucifer fell from heaven. In contemporary literature the mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. This is the result from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which refers to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Though Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star, Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness and scapegoat of Mankind. The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance.
The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). To the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28). Finally, to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exulted" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The word Lucifer is a poetic device, and adjective title for the Morning Star which too was used as a poetic device. The Roman-Greco Lucifer is the authentic deity and has absolutely nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith.
Then why did he say fall from heaven here? Isaiah 14:12 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,And he was a bearer of light and goodness qnd stuff before he was removed from heaven. Demons are fallen angels. Meaning they were all angels in heaven at one point and have been removed. Or how do you interpret fallen angels/demons?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 1, 2018 22:22:05 GMT
I think that the term -Lucifer- in the devil is not acceptable...this term can only be accepted by the angels of God.. but not to the fallen!
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 1, 2018 22:28:33 GMT
Διαμονδ it is accepted since Isaiah called the fallen one Lucifer too. It's just a name Shrug
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 1, 2018 22:31:55 GMT
So you're saying when Isaiah said Lucifer fell from heaven and when Jesus said Satan fell from heaven it means two beings actually fell from heaven? Isaiah never says Lucifer fell from heaven. In contemporary literature the mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. This is the result from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which refers to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Though Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star, Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness and scapegoat of Mankind. The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance.
The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). To the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28). Finally, to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exulted" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The word Lucifer is a poetic device, and adjective title for the Morning Star which too was used as a poetic device. The Roman-Greco Lucifer is the authentic deity and has absolutely nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith.
Isaiah was a Jew, but for them characteristic of them to write with hints. He wrote about the king of Babylon and at the same time hinted at Satan! In the Apocalypse, the morning star means Christ!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jul 1, 2018 22:35:04 GMT
Διαμονδ it is accepted since Isaiah called the fallen one Lucifer too. It's just a name name? there is no reason to believe so...just the title he had...all the angels of God carry light!
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Etu Malku
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Post by Etu Malku on Jul 1, 2018 22:44:41 GMT
Isaiah never says Lucifer fell from heaven. In contemporary literature the mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. This is the result from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which refers to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Though Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star, Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness and scapegoat of Mankind. The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance.
The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). To the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28). Finally, to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exulted" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The word Lucifer is a poetic device, and adjective title for the Morning Star which too was used as a poetic device. The Roman-Greco Lucifer is the authentic deity and has absolutely nothing to do with any Abrahamic faith.
Then why did he say fall from heaven here? Isaiah 14:12 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,And he was a bearer of light and goodness qnd stuff before he was removed from heaven. Demons are fallen angels. Meaning they were all angels in heaven at one point and have been removed. Or how do you interpret fallen angels/demons? Ok, let's examine what is really being said here in Isaiah 14:12: "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes" Which translates to: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning cut down to earth people who wounded" Where is the reference to Lucifer? To Satan? To an fallen angel? There isn't, it is a poetic device used in reference to the King of Babylon, who the Jews and Christians opposed vehemently.
As for my understanding of 'fallen angels' 'demons', well I am not Christian or of any Abrahamic faith so I don't deal with fallen angels or so called demons.
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