cinchknight
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Post by cinchknight on Feb 21, 2018 11:30:52 GMT
I hear religious folks ask Pascal's Wager a lot. I have a a few questions for the religious folks, Christians in particular, that ask about the Wager.
*Pascal's Wager is the question that usually involves stating "If you don't believe in god and you are right then nothing will happen but if you are wrong you will burn in hell." and then asking "Isn't is safer to assume god exists and hedge your bets in a way?" With some phrasing changing here and there depending on the person asking*
My questions are;
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on?
How do we decide which deity it is we hedge our bets on?
What if you choose to believe in the wrong god? Are you willing to bet you have the right choice and risk damnation?
Should we all be like that guy in the mummy and just wear every single religious groups necklace just in case?
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cinchknight
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Post by cinchknight on Feb 21, 2018 11:32:16 GMT
Something like this:
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 21, 2018 11:37:44 GMT
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on? If you're looking for a deity then do research on them and make your bet on the best one. Decide by what they offer. If a deity offers little to not much, it might not be a good option. This is why you research, then bet, and not worry  No. |
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cinchknight
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Post by cinchknight on Feb 21, 2018 11:52:01 GMT
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on? If you're looking for a deity then do research on them and make your bet on the best one. How will we know when we found the right one? What are we looking for? The point I am trying to make is that the Wager is presented as a dichotomy when in fact there are more than two options. When it is presented it is done normally by Christians and so they have the presumption that: 1) It is their god that one must believe in to avoid punishment 2) If one does not believe in/worship their deity then they are destined for punishment 3) There is a right answer and that all other answers are irrelevant or unimportant For example a Muslim might say to a Christian that if one does not believe in Allah in the way that they do that that person is destined for hell, and why not just believe the way they do and avoid the issue? |
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 21, 2018 11:58:59 GMT
How will we know when we found the right one? What are we looking for?
If you're looking for a diety you will find the one that suits you. And you tell us what you seek for. Christianity isn't for everyone so it won't mean everyone will choose it anyway so it isn't something I push on people because Jesus' followers were predestined from the beggining so they will find their way to it. Therefore, it's not a concern.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 21, 2018 12:06:20 GMT
What if you choose to believe in the wrong god? Are you willing to bet you have the right choice and risk damnation? Before accepting religion, study its history! The reasons for its occurrence and so on! |
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Mocha
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Post by Mocha on Feb 21, 2018 14:07:44 GMT
If there are an infinite number of religions, and only a finite number are correct, then the chance of choosing any of the correct religions is exactly zero.
Sure, there are a finite number of known religions, but new religions spring up all the time. It may be the case that the correct religion is something nobody has discovered yet. It may be the case that the correct religion will never be discovered!
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Torack
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Post by Torack on Feb 22, 2018 11:43:02 GMT
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on? How do we decide which deity it is we hedge our bets on? What if you choose to believe in the wrong god? Are you willing to bet you have the right choice and risk damnation? Should we all be like that guy in the mummy and just wear every single religious groups necklace just in case? Pascal's Wager is a good example to show how useless a belief in Atheism is. It provides no benefit to the believer in comparison to the opposing view. At the time Pascal said his famous phrase, other religions were already considered to be false, and that the Christian God was the only serious candidate for the position. It's only in modern times that humanity has resurrected the idea that 2 million + (If we include the Hindi gods) deities are on par with the Christian God. All that's required is a little investigation. If "a" god exists, which one is the most likely to exist? What criteria should we use to discover the answer, and is that criteria reasonable to expect. It's actually a very short trip to arrive at the most reasonable conclusion, that the Christian God is the only serious candidate. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 22, 2018 11:48:25 GMT
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on? How do we decide which deity it is we hedge our bets on? What if you choose to believe in the wrong god? Are you willing to bet you have the right choice and risk damnation? Should we all be like that guy in the mummy and just wear every single religious groups necklace just in case? Pascal's Wager is a good example to show how useless a belief in Atheism is. It provides no benefit to the believer in comparison to the opposing view. At the time Pascal said his famous phrase, other religions were already considered to be false, and that the Christian God was the only serious candidate for the position. It's only in modern times that humanity has resurrected the idea that 2 million + (If we include the Hindi gods) deities are on par with the Christian God. All that's required is a little investigation. If "a" god exists, which one is the most likely to exist? What criteria should we use to discover the answer, and is that criteria reasonable to expect. It's actually a very short trip to arrive at the most reasonable conclusion, that the Christian God is the only serious candidate. They actually disqualified all but our Christian God? I didn't know. |
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cinchknight
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Post by cinchknight on Feb 23, 2018 14:02:56 GMT
Which god out of the 3000 known deities do we hedge our bets on? How do we decide which deity it is we hedge our bets on? What if you choose to believe in the wrong god? Are you willing to bet you have the right choice and risk damnation? Should we all be like that guy in the mummy and just wear every single religious groups necklace just in case? Pascal's Wager is a good example to show how useless a belief in Atheism is. It provides no benefit to the believer in comparison to the opposing view. At the time Pascal said his famous phrase, other religions were already considered to be false, and that the Christian God was the only serious candidate for the position. It's only in modern times that humanity has resurrected the idea that 2 million + (If we include the Hindi gods) deities are on par with the Christian God. All that's required is a little investigation. If "a" god exists, which one is the most likely to exist? What criteria should we use to discover the answer, and is that criteria reasonable to expect. It's actually a very short trip to arrive at the most reasonable conclusion, that the Christian God is the only serious candidate. What exactly makes it the only obvious choice again? Is there evidence you can provide for that claim? Is Christianity the religion you grew up into? |
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Torack
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Post by Torack on Jun 29, 2018 3:13:23 GMT
All that's required is a little investigation. If "a" god exists, which one is the most likely to exist? What criteria should we use to discover the answer, and is that criteria reasonable to expect. It's actually a very short trip to arrive at the most reasonable conclusion, that the Christian God is the only serious candidate. What exactly makes it the only obvious choice again? Is there evidence you can provide for that claim? Is Christianity the religion you grew up into? I didn't say Christianity was the "obvious choice", I said it was the "most reasonable conclusion". Arriving at that consensus is a rather short trip, as it takes very little research on your part to discover. Take the 3 main competitors. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism. It takes merely a paragraph or less to discount each of those, and I challenge you to present any compelling argument as to why any of them should be considered as serious. The interesting thing is, my upbringing and culture has no effect on whether this argument is true. But since you asked, I was an Atheist for many years before I started investigating the truth. It took some time, but I followed the evidence where it led. You should aspire to have an open mind for the truth as well. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2018 3:29:38 GMT
What exactly makes it the only obvious choice again? Is there evidence you can provide for that claim? Is Christianity the religion you grew up into? I didn't say Christianity was the "obvious choice", I said it was the "most reasonable conclusion". Arriving at that consensus is a rather short trip, as it takes very little research on your part to discover. Take the 3 main competitors. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism. It takes merely a paragraph or less to discount each of those, and I challenge you to present any compelling argument as to why any of them should be considered as serious. The interesting thing is, my upbringing and culture has no effect on whether this argument is true. But since you asked, I was an Atheist for many years before I started investigating the truth. It took some time, but I followed the evidence where it led. You should aspire to have an open mind for the truth as well. You have explored Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism too? |
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Torack
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Post by Torack on Jun 29, 2018 4:21:21 GMT
I didn't say Christianity was the "obvious choice", I said it was the "most reasonable conclusion". Arriving at that consensus is a rather short trip, as it takes very little research on your part to discover. Take the 3 main competitors. Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism. It takes merely a paragraph or less to discount each of those, and I challenge you to present any compelling argument as to why any of them should be considered as serious. The interesting thing is, my upbringing and culture has no effect on whether this argument is true. But since you asked, I was an Atheist for many years before I started investigating the truth. It took some time, but I followed the evidence where it led. You should aspire to have an open mind for the truth as well. You have explored Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism too? Only to the degree when I was confident they were not true. Not in any great depth. Let me sum up. Buddhism teaches that there is no god and that the world has neither beginning nor end. 3 Scientists; Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin & Alan Guth, published a paper in 2003, proving the universe cannot be infinitely old. A cosmic beginning must have taken place. Whether you believe it was the "Big Bang" or a "Divine Creation Event", we can rule out Buddhism. Hinduism teaches a cycle of death and rebirth. Specifically, the rebirth of consciousness, or rebirth of living creatures, or rebirth of culture. But in terms of the world, views it as being eternal, without beginning or end. Since this is against the aforementioned research, we can confidently rule out Hinduism too. Islam believes in the God of Abraham, just like Christianity and Judaism. What differs is the revelation between the views. This now becomes a theological discussion rather then a scientific one. On that note, the Muslim holy book, the Quran, mentions Jesus 25 times, making Jesus the most mentioned person in the Quran. Muhammad, the primary prophet of Islam, was only mentioned 3 times. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 29, 2018 6:00:17 GMT
You have explored Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism too? Only to the degree when I was confident they were not true. Not in any great depth. Let me sum up. Buddhism teaches that there is no god and that the world has neither beginning nor end. 3 Scientists; Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin & Alan Guth, published a paper in 2003, proving the universe cannot be infinitely old. A cosmic beginning must have taken place. Whether you believe it was the "Big Bang" or a "Divine Creation Event", we can rule out Buddhism. Hinduism teaches a cycle of death and rebirth. Specifically, the rebirth of consciousness, or rebirth of living creatures, or rebirth of culture. But in terms of the world, views it as being eternal, without beginning or end. Since this is against the aforementioned research, we can confidently rule out Hinduism too. Islam believes in the God of Abraham, just like Christianity and Judaism. What differs is the revelation between the views. This now becomes a theological discussion rather then a scientific one. On that note, the Muslim holy book, the Quran, mentions Jesus 25 times, making Jesus the most mentioned person in the Quran. Muhammad, the primary prophet of Islam, was only mentioned 3 times. I mean I absolutely agree with them being ruled out and actually surprised that Buddhism says there's no beginning to the world. But I was a bit unclear about what made you rule out Islam. You mostly focused on the fact that that Jesus was the most mentioned person despite of Mubammad being their primary prophet and didn't say what was wrong with Islam in general. |
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Torack
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Post by Torack on Jun 29, 2018 7:33:11 GMT
Only to the degree when I was confident they were not true. Not in any great depth. Let me sum up. Buddhism teaches that there is no god and that the world has neither beginning nor end. 3 Scientists; Arvind Borde, Alexander Vilenkin & Alan Guth, published a paper in 2003, proving the universe cannot be infinitely old. A cosmic beginning must have taken place. Whether you believe it was the "Big Bang" or a "Divine Creation Event", we can rule out Buddhism. Hinduism teaches a cycle of death and rebirth. Specifically, the rebirth of consciousness, or rebirth of living creatures, or rebirth of culture. But in terms of the world, views it as being eternal, without beginning or end. Since this is against the aforementioned research, we can confidently rule out Hinduism too. Islam believes in the God of Abraham, just like Christianity and Judaism. What differs is the revelation between the views. This now becomes a theological discussion rather then a scientific one. On that note, the Muslim holy book, the Quran, mentions Jesus 25 times, making Jesus the most mentioned person in the Quran. Muhammad, the primary prophet of Islam, was only mentioned 3 times. I mean I absolutely agree with them being ruled out and actually surprised that Buddhism says there's no beginning to the world. But I was a bit unclear about what made you rule out Islam. You mostly focused on the fact that that Jesus was the most mentioned person despite of Mubammad being their primary prophet and didn't say what was wrong with Islam in general. Haha, yeah. I didn't go into depth because it branches out into a theological discussion. My answer is in reference to cinchknight's question, which is more Apologetic. That is to say, both Christianity and Islam believe in the God of Abraham, so by discussing Christianity vs Islam, we have already established that a deity exists, and have left Atheism far behind, which is cinchknight's standpoint. I'm happy to answer the question, I just thought it might be off topic and belong on a different thread. There are a great many aspects to this of course, but I'll just mention one that I think is a pretty good argument. Aside from Jesus being a focal point in the Quran, Jesus Christ created a bird from clay, which he blew into and brought to life with his breath. Much the same way in which mankind was created. The Quran also says, (several times in fact) that nobody besides God (Allah), can create life, not even a fly. Note how this works out logically: God alone can create life. Jesus Christ created life. Therefore, Jesus Christ must be God according to Islam. Here's a helpful link that I use. Might be useful to you if u have time to research a little more. www.answering-islam.org |
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