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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 10:05:49 GMT
Are they? What do you think? Let's discuss.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:30:02 GMT
This is incorrect. Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. We can't pray to another person because they are not a mediator for us and can't help us at all 1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Christians on earth often ask each other for us to pray for each other! Prayer to the saints is a request to the inhabitants of paradise! Do not forget God is not the god of the dead, but of the living! Mt. 22:31 Yes, we can pray FOR each other but not TO each other. A saint in heaven can't help you on earth and neither can he hear your prayers.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:30:19 GMT
But the Lord listens and commends the prayers of the saints: "For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, and his ears to their prayer" (1 Peter 3, 12). That is, if a person prays to the saint, then this is simply a request that the saint defended them before God! Because the saints live with God and God is not the God of the dead, everyone lives with him! The problem is that Catholics consider the Pope sacred! From history we know that this is not true!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:32:43 GMT
Christians on earth often ask each other for us to pray for each other! Prayer to the saints is a request to the inhabitants of paradise! Do not forget God is not the god of the dead, but of the living! Mt. 22:31 Yes, we can pray FOR each other but not TO each other. A saint in heaven can't help you on earth and neither can he hear your prayers. Are you sure? On what grounds? I wrote exactly what you mean at the expense of prayers!
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:41:03 GMT
But the Lord listens and commends the prayers of the saints: "For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, and his ears to their prayer" (1 Peter 3, 12). That is, if a person prays to the saint, then this is simply a request that the saint defended them before God! Because the saints live with God and God is not the God of the dead, everyone lives with him! The problem is that Catholics consider the Pope sacred! From history we know that this is not true! A saint can't defend you or save you. It's you and God. Jesus is the only one to connect you to God. Saints don't do anything to defend you. Romans 8 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Only the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us not other saints. Saints don't make intercession for us.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:44:14 GMT
Yes, we can pray FOR each other but not TO each other. A saint in heaven can't help you on earth and neither can he hear your prayers. Are you sure? On what grounds? I wrote exactly what you mean at the expense of prayers! I'm sure! James 5:16 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. For one another. Never to one another. A righteous man's prayer is all that God needs for it to go to God so we don't need to pray to saints.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:49:37 GMT
Are you sure? On what grounds? I wrote exactly what you mean at the expense of prayers! I'm sure! James 5:16 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. For one another. Never to one another. A righteous man's prayer is all that God needs for it to go to God so we don't need to pray to saints. Я именно про это и писал..не забывай я не знаток английского... Святые отличаються от не святых тем что у них живет Дух Бога! Они рожденные свыше и имеют Духа Божья это и делает их святыми!
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:53:49 GMT
I'm sure! James 5:16 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. For one another. Never to one another. A righteous man's prayer is all that God needs for it to go to God so we don't need to pray to saints. Я именно про это и писал..не забывай я не знаток английского... Святые отличаються от не святых тем что у них живет Дух Бога! Они рожденные свыше и имеют Духа Божья это и делает их святыми! Ok then don't pray to saints Jesus said pray like this... "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." But it doesn't say "Our SAINTS in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 18:57:50 GMT
Where is the scriptural support for this belief? So, I suggest that the reader again consider the theme of veneration of saints in the light of Holy Scripture. Immediately I would like to object to the author of the commentary that Lutherans know the Bible better than Orthodox. The Bible is one for both Orthodox and Protestants. There are Orthodox who know the Scriptures very well, there are also Protestants who are well-knit in the knowledge of the Bible. Therefore, I think that some comparison is inappropriate. Continue on. Indeed, the Protestants do not recognize the Holy Tradition, for them only the Holy Scripture is the authority. Let it be so. Let's start with the words ap. Paul, said in the Epistle to the Jews: "You have come ... to the degree of the Living God, to the Heavenly Jerusalem and the darkness of the Angels, to the triumphant cathedral and the church of the first-borns written in heaven, and to the Judge of all God, and to the spirits of the righteous who have attained perfection" ( Hebrews 12: 22-23). The righteous are in heaven, in Heavenly Jerusalem. Hence, their afterlife is already determined by the Lord. Even more revealing in this matter are the words of the Savior told to the repentant thief: "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). The Holy Scripture contains a sufficient number of texts that speak of saints as inhabits of the Heavenly City. Here is one of them: "Then the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having every harp and golden cup full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5.8). It shows the importance of the saints in Heavenly Jerusalem: "He made us kings and priests to our God; and we will reign on the earth "(Rev. 5, 10). And their number is large enough: "And I saw, and heard the voice of many angels around the throne and animals and elders, and their number was darkness of those and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5, 11). Hence, according to the Scriptures, the saints are already in paradise next to the Lord and their afterlife is already determined before the Last Judgment. Now it is worth considering the "incapacity" of the saints, of which the author of the commentary spoke. Here it would be appropriate to define the Church of Christ. Again, we turn to the Scriptures. God put "all heavenly and earthly things to unite under the head - the Christ" (Eph. 1.10). Therefore, the Church of Christ is the totality of the heavenly and earthly churches. The Church of heaven and earth is one Body, whose Head is Christ. And all of us, including the saints, are members of the same Body. But are not the members of one body caring for each other. Does not one leg, stumbling, shift the whole burden of the body to the other leg. Or one hand does not wash the other caring for her. The body can not function if the heart stops working. In that case, do not the saints care about us, already being before God. Does not the healthy organ of the body send an impulse to the brain that the neighboring one began to hurt. So also the saints pray for us of the Lord, "that there be no division in the body, and all members equally care for each other. Therefore, if one member suffers, all members suffer with it; whether one member is famous, all members rejoice with it "(1 Cor 12, 25-26). "The high Jerusalem ... he is the mother of all of us" (Gal 4,26). But citizens of one city, when they see their fellow citizens in any trouble, immediately help them by their call, than they can. So do both Orthodox and Protestants. Both of them pray for each other, regardless of the many difficulties that have to be overcome to help either by deed or prayer. They pray according to the apostle's words: "Is any of you sick, let him call the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will raise him up "(James 5: 14-15). So why do Protestants forbid praying for us by the apostles themselves? Is this not absurd? Mutual prayer is a manifestation of mutual Christian love and care. This is the kind of reciprocity between the earthly Church and the heavenly that the Protestant theologians do not believe. In the days of their earthly life, the apostles, according to the Savior, loved their neighbors and prayed for them: "we ... do not cease to pray for you" (Col. 1,8). So really, after they "got out of the body and settled with the Lord" (2Cor. 2.8), did they less love those who remained on earth? Did they lose that love in Christ Jesus, about which they themselves wrote that she "never ceases" (1 Cor 13.8)? "So why do Protestants forbid praying for us by the apostles themselves?" Because nowhere in the Bible is there scriptural support for praying to the apostles in hopes of them praying to God for you. Examples of who to pray to from scripture are as follows, -Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. -Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest. -Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. -Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. -Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? -John 14:13-14 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. -John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; -John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: -Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. -Acts 8:24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. -Acts 10:25-26 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. -Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. -Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; -Philippians 4:6-7 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. -1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? -Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. -Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And from the Old Testament, -Deuteronomy 18:9-12 9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. -Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. And a bonus, -John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I hope you understand that prayer is the highest form of worship. So, when you pray to Mary, or to any saint, you are worshipping them in the highest form. I believe we had a conversation in another thread in where you were otherwise swearing by traditions, and yet again here you are doing the same thing, swearing by a "Holy Tradition" even when the scripture says this about traditions, -Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. -Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. -2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 19:22:29 GMT
If someone is to pray to saints in the highest form is their business! I'm used to praying to Christ
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 21:10:06 GMT
Is it just me or is Diamond contradicting everything he says? Hmm. So confusing.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 22:11:05 GMT
Is it just me or is Diamond contradicting everything he says? Hmm. So confusing. He seems to flip-flop quite a bit
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Post by AmericanCharm on Feb 17, 2018 22:37:57 GMT
Not in my opinion, my Mothers side are Italian-American Catholics and I for the longest time have considered them almost like fake Christians. They do consider themselves as Christians though.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 23:30:07 GMT
Diamond your sources should be from the bible not internet though. It's what God says what is Christian not what people say. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." 1 Corinthians 14:34
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 23:59:03 GMT
Diamond your sources should be from the bible not internet though. It's what God says what is Christian not what people say. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." 1 Corinthians 14:34 Yes, but we are not in church!
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 18, 2018 23:13:51 GMT
And a bonus, -John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I hope you understand that prayer is the highest form of worship. So, when you pray to Mary, or to any saint, you are worshipping them in the highest form. I believe we had a conversation in another thread in where you were otherwise swearing by traditions, and yet again here you are doing the same thing, swearing by a "Holy Tradition" even when the scripture says this about traditions, -Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. -Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. -2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. He who prays to saints never prays in the HIGHEST FORM! Only God saves us! -2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle' I hold on to this tradition! About saint: To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne! Revelation 3:21
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