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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 10:05:49 GMT
Are they? What do you think? Let's discuss.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 17:47:38 GMT
Well, it's funny to read specifically about the Catholics in the Bible .. they arose in 1054. Protestants arose after Luther. Christ and the apostles simply preached the gospels! That won't matter at all. Bible says who is a Christian and who isn't. We just compare all denominations to what the bible says.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 17:53:21 GMT
Well, it's funny to read specifically about the Catholics in the Bible .. they arose in 1054. Protestants arose after Luther. Christ and the apostles simply preached the gospels! That won't matter at all. Bible says who is a Christian and who isn't. We just compare all denominations to what the bible says. -We just compare all denominations- If honestly all believers try to believe in God according to the Bible and in their denomination there is something that is not specifically mentioned in the Bible! But this does not justify the Pope of course!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 17:55:53 GMT
Well, it's funny to read specifically about the Catholics in the Bible .. they arose in 1054. Protestants arose after Luther. Christ and the apostles simply preached the gospels! You won't read about Catholics in the Bible, we know this. The point is, as it was from the beginning, that their authority is the Pope, not the scriptures which makes them no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who rely on their own elders to interpret God's word for them. Both can be considered a cult. What about other Catholic doctrines? Like praying to Mary and the saints? What exactly is ordinary about this when we have verses in the Bible like 1 Timothy 2:5?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:03:13 GMT
Well, it's funny to read specifically about the Catholics in the Bible .. they arose in 1054. Protestants arose after Luther. Christ and the apostles simply preached the gospels! You won't read about Catholics in the Bible, we know this. The point is, as it was from the beginning, that their authority is the Pope, not the scriptures which makes them no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who rely on their own elders to interpret God's word for them. Both can be considered a cult. What about other Catholic doctrines? Like praying to Mary and the saints? What exactly is ordinary about this when we have verses in the Bible like 1 Timothy 2:5? The strange thing is that each pope can correct his predecessor .. it's not Christian at all! As for the prayers of Mary and the saints, this does not contradict Paul! Why? In the Holy People the Spirit of God lives! That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:04:03 GMT
That won't matter at all. Bible says who is a Christian and who isn't. We just compare all denominations to what the bible says. -We just compare all denominations- If honestly all believers try to believe in God according to the Bible and in their denomination there is something that is not specifically mentioned in the Bible! But this does not justify the Pope of course! Not everyone, like catholics for example. You like outside of the bible stories....so you know about the fact that catholics sold indulgences? This was putting your belief in your money and the church to go to heaven...they were not putting a belief in Christ. This is not Christian.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:07:20 GMT
-We just compare all denominations- If honestly all believers try to believe in God according to the Bible and in their denomination there is something that is not specifically mentioned in the Bible! But this does not justify the Pope of course! Not everyone, like catholics for example. You like outside of the bible stories....so you know about the fact that catholics sold indulgences? This was putting your belief in your money and the church to go to heaven...they were not putting a belief in Christ. This is not Christian. You still do not understand? I'm not Catholic and I'm not going to justify their heresies!
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:09:04 GMT
You won't read about Catholics in the Bible, we know this. The point is, as it was from the beginning, that their authority is the Pope, not the scriptures which makes them no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who rely on their own elders to interpret God's word for them. Both can be considered a cult. What about other Catholic doctrines? Like praying to Mary and the saints? What exactly is ordinary about this when we have verses in the Bible like 1 Timothy 2:5? The strange thing is that each pope can correct his predecessor .. it's not Christian at all! As for the prayers of Mary and the saints, this does not contradict Paul! Why? In the Holy People the Spirit of God lives! That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
This is incorrect. Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. We can't pray to another person because they are not a mediator for us and can't help us at all 1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 18:10:21 GMT
You won't read about Catholics in the Bible, we know this. The point is, as it was from the beginning, that their authority is the Pope, not the scriptures which makes them no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who rely on their own elders to interpret God's word for them. Both can be considered a cult. What about other Catholic doctrines? Like praying to Mary and the saints? What exactly is ordinary about this when we have verses in the Bible like 1 Timothy 2:5? The strange thing is that each pope can correct his predecessor .. it's not Christian at all! As for the prayers of Mary and the saints, this does not contradict Paul! Why? In the Holy People the Spirit of God lives! That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
"Praying to them is a prayer to God!" I thought you might say that, Catholics would say the same thing. So where in the Bible do we see an example of someone praying to someone other than God?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:13:14 GMT
The strange thing is that each pope can correct his predecessor .. it's not Christian at all! As for the prayers of Mary and the saints, this does not contradict Paul! Why? In the Holy People the Spirit of God lives! That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
This is incorrect. Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. We can't pray to another person because they are not a mediator for us and can't help us at all 1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus Christians on earth often ask each other for us to pray for each other! Prayer to the saints is a request to the inhabitants of paradise! Do not forget God is not the god of the dead, but of the living! Mt. 22:31
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 17, 2018 18:13:38 GMT
Not everyone, like catholics for example. You like outside of the bible stories....so you know about the fact that catholics sold indulgences? This was putting your belief in your money and the church to go to heaven...they were not putting a belief in Christ. This is not Christian. You still do not understand? I'm not Catholic and I'm not going to justify their heresies! I understand. But you said they are Christian so you must support your answer about why they are Christian when they don't follow the bible.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:14:24 GMT
The strange thing is that each pope can correct his predecessor .. it's not Christian at all! As for the prayers of Mary and the saints, this does not contradict Paul! Why? In the Holy People the Spirit of God lives! That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
"Praying to them is a prayer to God!" I thought you might say that, Catholics would say the same thing. So where in the Bible do we see an example of someone praying to someone other than God? You just argue like a materialist! God is a supernatural being! End of discussions!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 18:15:43 GMT
"Praying to them is a prayer to God!" I thought you might say that, Catholics would say the same thing. So where in the Bible do we see an example of someone praying to someone other than God? You just argue like a materialist! God is a supernatural being! End of discussions! God's word is all we have, so where in His word does it say to pray to anyone other than Him?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:17:58 GMT
You just argue like a materialist! God is a supernatural being! End of discussions! God's word is all we have, so where in His word does it say to pray to anyone other than Him? That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 17, 2018 18:18:45 GMT
God's word is all we have, so where in His word does it say to pray to anyone other than Him? That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God! Where is the scriptural support for this belief?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 17, 2018 18:24:53 GMT
That is, God himself lives within those who are with him in heaven! Praying to them is a prayer to God! Where is the scriptural support for this belief? So, I suggest that the reader again consider the theme of veneration of saints in the light of Holy Scripture. Immediately I would like to object to the author of the commentary that Lutherans know the Bible better than Orthodox. The Bible is one for both Orthodox and Protestants. There are Orthodox who know the Scriptures very well, there are also Protestants who are well-knit in the knowledge of the Bible. Therefore, I think that some comparison is inappropriate. Continue on. Indeed, the Protestants do not recognize the Holy Tradition, for them only the Holy Scripture is the authority. Let it be so. Let's start with the words ap. Paul, said in the Epistle to the Jews: "You have come ... to the degree of the Living God, to the Heavenly Jerusalem and the darkness of the Angels, to the triumphant cathedral and the church of the first-borns written in heaven, and to the Judge of all God, and to the spirits of the righteous who have attained perfection" ( Hebrews 12: 22-23). The righteous are in heaven, in Heavenly Jerusalem. Hence, their afterlife is already determined by the Lord. Even more revealing in this matter are the words of the Savior told to the repentant thief: "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). The Holy Scripture contains a sufficient number of texts that speak of saints as inhabits of the Heavenly City. Here is one of them: "Then the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having every harp and golden cup full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5.8). It shows the importance of the saints in Heavenly Jerusalem: "He made us kings and priests to our God; and we will reign on the earth "(Rev. 5, 10). And their number is large enough: "And I saw, and heard the voice of many angels around the throne and animals and elders, and their number was darkness of those and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5, 11). Hence, according to the Scriptures, the saints are already in paradise next to the Lord and their afterlife is already determined before the Last Judgment. Now it is worth considering the "incapacity" of the saints, of which the author of the commentary spoke. Here it would be appropriate to define the Church of Christ. Again, we turn to the Scriptures. God put "all heavenly and earthly things to unite under the head - the Christ" (Eph. 1.10). Therefore, the Church of Christ is the totality of the heavenly and earthly churches. The Church of heaven and earth is one Body, whose Head is Christ. And all of us, including the saints, are members of the same Body. But are not the members of one body caring for each other. Does not one leg, stumbling, shift the whole burden of the body to the other leg. Or one hand does not wash the other caring for her. The body can not function if the heart stops working. In that case, do not the saints care about us, already being before God. Does not the healthy organ of the body send an impulse to the brain that the neighboring one began to hurt. So also the saints pray for us of the Lord, "that there be no division in the body, and all members equally care for each other. Therefore, if one member suffers, all members suffer with it; whether one member is famous, all members rejoice with it "(1 Cor 12, 25-26). "The high Jerusalem ... he is the mother of all of us" (Gal 4,26). But citizens of one city, when they see their fellow citizens in any trouble, immediately help them by their call, than they can. So do both Orthodox and Protestants. Both of them pray for each other, regardless of the many difficulties that have to be overcome to help either by deed or prayer. They pray according to the apostle's words: "Is any of you sick, let him call the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will raise him up "(James 5: 14-15). So why do Protestants forbid praying for us by the apostles themselves? Is this not absurd? Mutual prayer is a manifestation of mutual Christian love and care. This is the kind of reciprocity between the earthly Church and the heavenly that the Protestant theologians do not believe. In the days of their earthly life, the apostles, according to the Savior, loved their neighbors and prayed for them: "we ... do not cease to pray for you" (Col. 1,8). So really, after they "got out of the body and settled with the Lord" (2Cor. 2.8), did they less love those who remained on earth? Did they lose that love in Christ Jesus, about which they themselves wrote that she "never ceases" (1 Cor 13.8)?
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