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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 8:40:43 GMT
The doctrine of salvation is often discussion among Christians on and off the internet, but it is obvious that there is a divide in what Christians believe salvation is and how to achieve it. One argument is that we are saved by our good works, our repenting of our sins, and our keeping of the law. While another argument is that we are saved by faith and by faith only. And a third argument is that we are saved by both faith and works, but which one of these is true? There are also other disagreements in the doctrine of salvation as many believe it is possible to lose our salvation once we are saved and others believe it is impossible to lose our salvation, but which one is true? The best we can do is to refer ourselves to the scriptures as God's word is all that we have to tell us what the truth is. Based on your reading of the scriptures, which doctrine of salvation do you believe is true doctrine? Please use scripture to support your belief.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 18:54:05 GMT
Saved but can't back it up? I could be confused or just lack of sleep xD A saved person must back up their faith with works. Because as those verses above in Romans 1 said they must give God glory. If they do not then they are not saved like the demons aren't. They have some faith there but not the saving faith because savinf faith produces works. As Ephesians 2:10 states that if we belong to Him we are His workmanship that does good works. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Abraham's faith was justified and made perfect when he provided the works. These worka must be seen to other people too! Matthew 5:16 says 16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." When Jesus spoke parables like the Good Sarmaritan and other parables, He didn't want us to just listen to them. He wanted us to know how to show these works to people around us. This will show if we built our house on a rock...or sadly on sand. Matthew 7:24-27 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” You said "A saved person must back up their faith with works." and "These works must be seen to other people too!" But wait, what about Romans 4:2? "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Doesn't this mean Abraham isn't justified before God by works? Even you pointed out in your first post how our works are filthy rags before God. Even Titus 3:5 says, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Yes, Ephesian 2:10 says, 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It doesn't say "we are saved by our good works", it says in the two verses before "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:"..."Not of works" and then in verse 10 it says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,"..."created" as in born again(John 3:3) into a new creature(2 Corinthians 5:17)also known as the inward man(2 Corinthians 4:16) "in Christ Jesus", that is our faith in Him, "unto"(to do) good works, not BY good works. I mean, if we had to do good works to be saved, it is no longer "the gift of God", because gifts are free and we know salvation is a free gift(Romans 5:15-18). So, then how is it that a person must back their faith with good works before God for salvation? Sorry, I am really not trying to confuse you at all. I'm simply going to the scripture and showing you what it says. I think I'm confusing you. James chapter 2 says "17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." So, without works your faith is pointless. Good works are the result of faith. So, if you really have faith, then you have the works. They go together. You can't have one without the other to be saved. If you just have good works then they're filthy rags as scripture says and if you have just faith then you're no better than a demon with dead faith. Good works are there to glorify God which is why we were created as the craftsmanship of God. For example in Matthew chapter 6. Do you know why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites? Yes, they were providing the good works...but not for God. They sought glory for themselves only and wanted praise from the people. Jesus said they did wrong not giving the glory to God. In their case, their good works were rags because it wasn't done for God. Matthew 6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men." So we do the good works, but we never sound the trumpet on ourselves but on God otherwise we are not in the faith. Paul reminds us to always test ourselves to see if we are really in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13 "5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." Abraham was only perfected in his faith by good works. Otherwise he'd be disqualified as being in the faith. If Abraham wasn't willing to sacrifice his son then it was proof he didn't have the faith but he was willing because he knew he had to to back up his faith in God. You're still thinking I'm saving good works alone save you. No, they don't, they are the result of faith. If good works aren't there then neither is the faith. James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Only scripting nothing else
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 19:01:18 GMT
There's a difference between saved by works (this isn't salvation) and justified by works (this is salvation). If you love someone and can't back it up then it's not love. Words (what you claim) and actions (the works) must both be present to establish a person. If a friend claims to love you but keeps stabbing you in the back he failed at loving you and is lying because he doesn't have the proof with his actions. John 15:8 about glorifying God with good works
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 7 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
And when that fruit/works are there then we proved to be His disciples. James 2:22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 13, 2018 23:00:30 GMT
Salvation is in fact a great mystery! That is, the human mind can not realize the reality of the spiritual world. Therefore, it is desirable for a person to believe in salvation and follow the Bible!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 7:12:40 GMT
You said "A saved person must back up their faith with works." and "These works must be seen to other people too!" But wait, what about Romans 4:2? "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Doesn't this mean Abraham isn't justified before God by works? Even you pointed out in your first post how our works are filthy rags before God. Even Titus 3:5 says, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Yes, Ephesian 2:10 says, 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It doesn't say "we are saved by our good works", it says in the two verses before "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:"..."Not of works" and then in verse 10 it says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,"..."created" as in born again(John 3:3) into a new creature(2 Corinthians 5:17)also known as the inward man(2 Corinthians 4:16) "in Christ Jesus", that is our faith in Him, "unto"(to do) good works, not BY good works. I mean, if we had to do good works to be saved, it is no longer "the gift of God", because gifts are free and we know salvation is a free gift(Romans 5:15-18). So, then how is it that a person must back their faith with good works before God for salvation? Sorry, I am really not trying to confuse you at all. I'm simply going to the scripture and showing you what it says. I think I'm confusing you. James chapter 2 says "17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." So, without works your faith is pointless. Good works are the result of faith. So, if you really have faith, then you have the works. They go together. You can't have one without the other to be saved. If you just have good works then they're filthy rags as scripture says and if you have just faith then you're no better than a demon with dead faith. Good works are there to glorify God which is why we were created as the craftsmanship of God. For example in Matthew chapter 6. Do you know why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites? Yes, they were providing the good works...but not for God. They sought glory for themselves only and wanted praise from the people. Jesus said they did wrong not giving the glory to God. In their case, their good works were rags because it wasn't done for God. Matthew 6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men." So we do the good works, but we never sound the trumpet on ourselves but on God otherwise we are not in the faith. Paul reminds us to always test ourselves to see if we are really in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13 "5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." Abraham was only perfected in his faith by good works. Otherwise he'd be disqualified as being in the faith. If Abraham wasn't willing to sacrifice his son then it was proof he didn't have the faith but he was willing because he knew he had to to back up his faith in God. You're still thinking I'm saving good works alone save you. No, they don't, they are the result of faith. If good works aren't there then neither is the faith. James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Only scripting nothing else Nah, you're not confusing me. I understand exactly what you're telling me and you reiterated it again. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't believe in a works salvation because the Bible doesn't say we are saved by works anywhere. It says we are created unto good works after we are saved, it doesn't say we are saved by our good works, or that our good works are proof before God that we are saved, and it is consistent throughout the Bible. I mean you even said it yourself "Good works are the result of faith." which I totally agree with. But it seems according to you someone being saved and not having any good works is impossible and I totally understand why you believe that, but I don't find that in the scripture anywhere. I mean, I will give a good example.. let's say someone just got saved 5 minutes ago and they don't have any good works at all to prove their faith. Who is to say that that person is or isn't actually saved? It is God, right? Only God would truly know if that person is saved because God can see that person's heart, He can see if they truly repented from unbelief to belief and came to the Christian faith, and we cannot, all the while that person doesn't have any good works. So, by the logic you are using, God would have to wait and see that person's good works to know if that person was actually saved. And in the logic I am using, God already knows, that person's works or the lack thereof do not matter to God, because God can see their heart before any of us who need to see their good works to know if that person is saved because we cannot see the hearts of men. I also don't see where it says demons have 'dead faith', I do see where it says demons believe there is one God, but believing in one God isn't the same faith we as Christians have, that faith being we are completely trusting in the works that Christ did on the cross for the remission of our sins because we are all sinners and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves from the wages of sin which is death. Demons, as far as what they believe goes, have rejected God, so God rejected them, they hate God and God gave them over to their lusts, vile affections, and reprobate minds. I wouldn't begin to put demons in the category of having the Christian faith at all, because they rejected God after knowing the truth that God showed them. They don't believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins, hence they do not have the same faith we have. Yes, they believe God exists, I'm sure they know God exists and His power, I'm sure they know who Jesus Christ is and His power, but believing and/or knowing in the existence of God and Jesus isn't the Christian faith. The Christian faith is, as I said before, completely trusting in the works that Christ did on the cross for the remission of our sins because we are all sinners and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves from the wages of sin which is death.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 7:25:47 GMT
There's a difference between saved by works (this isn't salvation) and justified by works (this is salvation). If you love someone and can't back it up then it's not love. Words (what you claim) and actions (the works) must both be present to establish a person. If a friend claims to love you but keeps stabbing you in the back he failed at loving you and is lying because he doesn't have the proof with his actions. John 15:8 about glorifying God with good works This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. Matthew 7 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. And when that fruit/works are there then we proved to be His disciples. James 2:22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.I'm not claiming your words are what save you. I am claiming what you truly believe in your heart saves you. Someone who cannot speak can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart, and a person that cannot do works because of some disability can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart. We are not justified by our works before God, just as Abraham wasn't justified by his works before God(Romans 4:2). I understand what your point is, a friend claims to love you but keeps back stabbing you, that person doesn't love you, I get that. That is why I agree with what you said earlier, that "Good works are the result of faith.", but it is NOT 'salvation is the result of good works.' ever. If someone claims to be Christian and they do terrible things to others, they are 99.9% probably not a Christian. I find it difficult to believe someone who is saved would want to hurt other people on purpose, but even so, look at what king David did; he killed a man so he could take his wife, but we know David was saved. This is why I must point out again, that God knows our hearts, He knows who is truly saved and who isn't, and that the works part is for us to see who is saved and who isn't because we cannot see what men truly believe in their hearts.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 14, 2018 7:36:24 GMT
I think I'm confusing you. James chapter 2 says "17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." So, without works your faith is pointless. Good works are the result of faith. So, if you really have faith, then you have the works. They go together. You can't have one without the other to be saved. If you just have good works then they're filthy rags as scripture says and if you have just faith then you're no better than a demon with dead faith. Good works are there to glorify God which is why we were created as the craftsmanship of God. For example in Matthew chapter 6. Do you know why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites? Yes, they were providing the good works...but not for God. They sought glory for themselves only and wanted praise from the people. Jesus said they did wrong not giving the glory to God. In their case, their good works were rags because it wasn't done for God. Matthew 6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men." So we do the good works, but we never sound the trumpet on ourselves but on God otherwise we are not in the faith. Paul reminds us to always test ourselves to see if we are really in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13 "5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." Abraham was only perfected in his faith by good works. Otherwise he'd be disqualified as being in the faith. If Abraham wasn't willing to sacrifice his son then it was proof he didn't have the faith but he was willing because he knew he had to to back up his faith in God. You're still thinking I'm saving good works alone save you. No, they don't, they are the result of faith. If good works aren't there then neither is the faith. James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Only scripting nothing else We're not saved by works. You did missunderstand me. Works are the way to glorify God and they justify our faith. Bible does say faith without works is dead. The works HAVE to be there to back up your faith because faith is what saves you. But if there are no works, your faith is dead, and if no faith or dead faith then no salvation. We were saved by grace as I said. Good works come after to justify if we really have faith. And it does say good works are proof of our faith. I showed the verse already for this. If a person is living here and claims to have faith then yes he must prove it. And the verse was given. Like I can't just go say I'm a doctor. I must have proof. Who will hire me as a doctor just by my word? Only an unwise person because I'm no doctor so will not make anyone better, but might make them worse. That person hasn't been saved long enough to do something in 5 minutes. If he died then for example then yes God will know but no one else will know. Like the robber on the cross. He knew He was guilty and deserved the punishment and knee Jesus was innocent. He had the faith because Jesus said he will be in paradise. Otherwise if Jesus didn't say that we'd assume hell becausr robbers go to hell. But since he had real faith but because wasn't given the chance to prove it, it isn't his fault. Jesus knew he would prove it if he was able to.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 14, 2018 7:44:47 GMT
There's a difference between saved by works (this isn't salvation) and justified by works (this is salvation). If you love someone and can't back it up then it's not love. Words (what you claim) and actions (the works) must both be present to establish a person. If a friend claims to love you but keeps stabbing you in the back he failed at loving you and is lying because he doesn't have the proof with his actions. John 15:8 about glorifying God with good works This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. Matthew 7 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. And when that fruit/works are there then we proved to be His disciples. James 2:22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.I'm not claiming your words are what save you. I am claiming what you truly believe in your heart saves you. Someone who cannot speak can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart, and a person that cannot do works because of some disability can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart. We are not justified by our works before God, just as Abraham wasn't justified by his works before God(Romans 4:2). Correct. The robber on the cross couldn't have the time to have the actions of good works to complete his faith but if he had time he had to complete his faith or that faith is obviously incomplete as the verse said. Only saying faith is justified by works and that works make your faith complete. Then this kind of complete faith saves you. Only saying what verses say. A verse for where it says King David was saved please. Because God sent him a messager tl tell David about a man who did all these terrible things and David said that man should be killed. The messager said that man in the story is him. So why did God send a messager to say David deserves death?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 8:03:48 GMT
We're not saved by works. You did missunderstand me. Works are the way to glorify God and they justify our faith. Bible does say faith without works is dead. The works HAVE to be there to back up your faith because faith is what saves you. But if there are no works, your faith is dead, and if no faith or dead faith then no salvation. We were saved by grace as I said. Good works come after to justify if we really have faith. And it does say good works are proof of our faith. I showed the verse already for this. If a person is living here and claims to have faith then yes he must prove it. And the verse was given. Like I can't just go say I'm a doctor. I must have proof. Who will hire me as a doctor just by my word? Only an unwise person because I'm no doctor so will not make anyone better, but might make them worse. That person hasn't been saved long enough to do something in 5 minutes. If he died then for example then yes God will know but no one else will know. Like the robber on the cross. He knew He was guilty and deserved the punishment and knee Jesus was innocent. He had the faith because Jesus said he will be in paradise. Otherwise if Jesus didn't say that we'd assume hell becausr robbers go to hell. But since he had real faith but because wasn't given the chance to prove it, it isn't his fault. Jesus knew he would prove it if he was able to. "Bible does say faith without works is dead." Dead to who? "Good works come after to justify if we really have faith." Justify to who? "If a person is living here and claims to have faith then yes he must prove it." Prove it to who? "That person hasn't been saved long enough to do something in 5 minutes. If he died then for example then yes God will know but no one else will know." This is exactly my point. But extend that 5 minutes to 5 years, or 50 years and then they die. Are they not saved?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 8:19:31 GMT
I'm not claiming your words are what save you. I am claiming what you truly believe in your heart saves you. Someone who cannot speak can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart, and a person that cannot do works because of some disability can surely be saved because of what they believe in their heart. We are not justified by our works before God, just as Abraham wasn't justified by his works before God(Romans 4:2). Correct. The robber on the cross couldn't have the time to have the actions of good works to complete his faith but if he had time he had to complete his faith or that faith is obviously incomplete as the verse said. Only saying faith is justified by works and that works make your faith complete. Then this kind of complete faith saves you. Only saying what verses say. A verse for where it says King David was saved please. Because God sent him a messager tl tell David about a man who did all these terrible things and David said that man should be killed. The messager said that man in the story is him. So why did God send a messager to say David deserves death? Because David did deserve death which were the wages for his sins. Didn't David admit that he was this man in the story and that he did deserve death? Psalm 30, Psalm 32, and Psalm 51 which were written by David show us he knew what salvation was and did indeed have it.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 14, 2018 8:48:26 GMT
DKTrav88 Dead to everyone, and especially by God. Justify to everyone, especially God. Prove it to everyone, especially to God. Good works make a person righteous as a result of their faith. Deuteronomy 6:25 "It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us James 2:22 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Matthew 5:16 (we must show works) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Psalms 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD. Matthew 5:20 ( if we don't even have our righteous acts by faith...how can we even save ourselves?) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.So... If you even have nothing to provide when you had time, you can't have a chance to even enter a kingdom of God. Well, Pharisees had faith but no works and Jesus declared them unrighteous and said our righteousness must be better than theirs (as in real with works justified by our faith) or else we will not enter. So, I hope in 5 years or 10 years they have this righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees if they wish to go to heaven. But such a tree will be cut down it seems.... Matthew Chapter 7 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 8:48:28 GMT
We're not saved by works. You did missunderstand me. Works are the way to glorify God and they justify our faith. Bible does say faith without works is dead. The works HAVE to be there to back up your faith because faith is what saves you. But if there are no works, your faith is dead, and if no faith or dead faith then no salvation. We were saved by grace as I said. Good works come after to justify if we really have faith. And it does say good works are proof of our faith. I showed the verse already for this. If a person is living here and claims to have faith then yes he must prove it. And the verse was given. Like I can't just go say I'm a doctor. I must have proof. Who will hire me as a doctor just by my word? Only an unwise person because I'm no doctor so will not make anyone better, but might make them worse. That person hasn't been saved long enough to do something in 5 minutes. If he died then for example then yes God will know but no one else will know. Like the robber on the cross. He knew He was guilty and deserved the punishment and knee Jesus was innocent. He had the faith because Jesus said he will be in paradise. Otherwise if Jesus didn't say that we'd assume hell becausr robbers go to hell. But since he had real faith but because wasn't given the chance to prove it, it isn't his fault. Jesus knew he would prove it if he was able to. "Bible does say faith without works is dead." Dead to who? "Good works come after to justify if we really have faith." Justify to who? "If a person is living here and claims to have faith then yes he must prove it." Prove it to who? "That person hasn't been saved long enough to do something in 5 minutes. If he died then for example then yes God will know but no one else will know." This is exactly my point. But extend that 5 minutes to 5 years, or 50 years and then they die. Are they not saved?
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 14, 2018 8:53:13 GMT
Correct. The robber on the cross couldn't have the time to have the actions of good works to complete his faith but if he had time he had to complete his faith or that faith is obviously incomplete as the verse said. Only saying faith is justified by works and that works make your faith complete. Then this kind of complete faith saves you. Only saying what verses say. A verse for where it says King David was saved please. Because God sent him a messager tl tell David about a man who did all these terrible things and David said that man should be killed. The messager said that man in the story is him. So why did God send a messager to say David deserves death? Because David did deserve death which were the wages for his sins. Didn't David admit that he was this man in the story and that he did deserve death? Psalm 30, Psalm 32, and Psalm 51 which were written by David show us he knew what salvation was and did indeed have it. The Psalms were written when he younger. When he was a Shepard and not yet lived his life. I want the verse after the time God sent a messanger to tell David he should die and that David ignored the messanger. I mean...David didn't even care about the message. He just shrugged it off. So, this is why I was asking for a verse about if he decided to care at all about why God was displeased. A Christian will correct his error in his ways by the word of God. So need to know David decided to correct his ways.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 9:09:51 GMT
DKTrav88 Dead to everyone, and especially by God. Justify to everyone, especially God. Prove it to everyone, especially to God. Good works make a person righteous as a result of their faith. Deuteronomy 6:25 "It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us James 2:22 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Matthew 5:16 (we must show works) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Psalms 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD. Matthew 5:20 ( if we don't even have our righteous acts by faith...how can we even save ourselves?) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.So... If you even have nothing to provide when you had time, you can't have a chance to even enter a kingdom of God. Well, Pharisees had faith but no works and Jesus declared them unrighteous and said our righteousness must be better than theirs (as in real with works justified by our faith) or else we will not enter. So, I hope in 5 years or 10 years they have this righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees if they wish to go to heaven. But such a tree will be cut down it seems.... Matthew Chapter 7 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. "Dead to everyone, and especially by God. Justify to everyone, especially God. Prove it to everyone, especially to God. " Why do you need to prove your faith to God through your works when he can already see what's in your heart? "Good works make a person righteous as a result of their faith." Romans 11:6 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Titus 3:4-5 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; You quoted, James 2:22 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Yes considered righteous to other men, not God because God and only God knows who is and who isn't truly saved. You quoted Matthew 5:20, 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Salvation, our faith, is what makes us righteous, not our works. The Pharisees had no righteousness because they did not believe Christ was the Son of God. Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. See you aren't confusing me and I don't misunderstand. I just disagree. You believe salvation is by faith, but that we can only prove it through our works to God. I am saying that is wrong because that is literally the same thing as a works salvation. To lay it out for you as simple as possible, you are saying salvation comes by faith but only if you do good works after having faith. So you are saying you can have faith, but that your faith isn't good enough, you must also have works, so works are what save you, not faith.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 14, 2018 9:17:11 GMT
Because David did deserve death which were the wages for his sins. Didn't David admit that he was this man in the story and that he did deserve death? Psalm 30, Psalm 32, and Psalm 51 which were written by David show us he knew what salvation was and did indeed have it. The Psalms were written when he younger. When he was a Shepard and not yet lived his life. I want the verse after the time God sent a messanger to tell David he should die and that David ignored the messanger. I mean...David didn't even care about the message. He just shrugged it off. So, this is why I was asking for a verse about if he decided to care at all about why God was displeased. A Christian will correct his error in his ways by the word of God. So need to know David decided to correct his ways. Sorry, David didn't just shrug the message off. 2 Samuel 12:13 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. As you can see he admitted he was wrong. "I want the verse after the time God sent a messanger to tell David he should die and that David ignored the messanger." David didn't ignore the messenger, I never claimed that he did ignore the messenger. I did say, however, "Didn't David admit that he was this man in the story and that he did deserve death?" And he did, he said "I have sinned against the Lord" and he knew what the punishment was for sinning.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 14, 2018 9:24:30 GMT
DKTrav88Why do we need to prove our faith to God? We just have to show it. That's it. Because scripture says to show our works. It says we have to so verses are verses. I don't mess with what God says. So if this verse is really completed that Jesus tells us to do then there is nothing else to add. I would be worried not to complete the below verse. If you rather ignore the verse then that's up to you. I make sure to do all of them so then He doesn't ask where my works went when He askes for them by saying He told me about it in the below verse. Because since I'm saved by His grace I know that He expects me to live by the law as He fulfilled it Himself. So if Christ lives in me I must reflect Him and do what He did. And He also completed the works to glorify the Father before people. And through His works the people did indeed glorify God. Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
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