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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 8:40:43 GMT
The doctrine of salvation is often discussion among Christians on and off the internet, but it is obvious that there is a divide in what Christians believe salvation is and how to achieve it. One argument is that we are saved by our good works, our repenting of our sins, and our keeping of the law. While another argument is that we are saved by faith and by faith only. And a third argument is that we are saved by both faith and works, but which one of these is true? There are also other disagreements in the doctrine of salvation as many believe it is possible to lose our salvation once we are saved and others believe it is impossible to lose our salvation, but which one is true? The best we can do is to refer ourselves to the scriptures as God's word is all that we have to tell us what the truth is. Based on your reading of the scriptures, which doctrine of salvation do you believe is true doctrine? Please use scripture to support your belief.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 13, 2018 8:46:13 GMT
"Not everyone who says to me: Lord!" Continuing to expound the notion of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ said: "Not everyone who says to me:" Lord! Lord, he will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven "(Matthew 7:21)
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 9:07:45 GMT
Love the topic already!
Ok so we cannot enter with just being a good person with our good works because as said they're filthy rags according to scripture. Our salvation is only possible by His grace and if we have faith in Him. Then upon receiving this grace we must produce good works while living by faith.
Ephesians Chapter 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
As Ephesians says salvation was a gift from God and nothing that we did or can do ourselves will give us salvation so we can skip the boasting and praise God only. And God created us for good works. So we must have both. Good works are proof of our faith in God.
If we have no works then our faith is dead. Because if you can't back up what you believe with actions then where is your faith?
James Chapter 2 Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Demons even have faith so faith alone means nothing or else even the demons would be saved. It faith then actions of our faith must follow. Or else it means nothing.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 10:01:09 GMT
"Not everyone who says to me: Lord!" Continuing to expound the notion of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ said: "Not everyone who says to me:" Lord! Lord, he will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven "(Matthew 7:21) And what is the will of the Father in heaven? John 6:39-40 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Feb 13, 2018 10:36:11 GMT
"Not everyone who says to me: Lord!" Continuing to expound the notion of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ said: "Not everyone who says to me:" Lord! Lord, he will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven "(Matthew 7:21) And what is the will of the Father in heaven? John 6:39-40 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Elizabeth wrote in detail!
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 10:40:57 GMT
And what is the will of the Father in heaven? John 6:39-40 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Elizabeth wrote in detail! Why not in your own words?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 11:03:31 GMT
Love the topic already! Ok so we cannot enter with just being a good person with our good works because as said they're filthy rags according to scripture. Our salvation is only possible by His grace and if we have faith in Him. Then upon receiving this grace we must produce good works while living by faith. Ephesians Chapter 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.As Ephesians says salvation was a gift from God and nothing that we did or can do ourselves will give us salvation so we can skip the boasting and praise God only. And God created us for good works. So we must have both. Good works are proof of our faith in God. If we have no works then our faith is dead. Because if you can't back up what you believe with actions then where is your faith? James Chapter 2 Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Demons even have faith so faith alone means nothing or else even the demons would be saved. It faith then actions of our faith must follow. Or else it means nothing. I mostly agree. The part I disagree with is your claim to demons having faith, I do not believe that demons have faith necessarily. They know God exists, but knowing God exists isn't what saves us, it is faith that saves us. Romans 1 supports this; Romans 1:17-32 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. These people in Romans 1 that Paul is speaking of know of God's existence, but in knowing God's existence, because God had shown them that He exists so that they are without excuse, they glorified Him not as God but changed the glory and truth of God into a lie. So, God gave them up to uncleanness, vile affections, and gave them over to a reprobate mind. I believe demons and even Satan himself would fall under this same description. In pointing this out, I would have to argue that demons know God exists and that their knowing of God's existence is not the same thing as faith as defined in the Bible. The faith defined in the Bible is faith in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for the remission of our sins(Romans 3:19-31), that His blood is the propitiation for our sins(1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10), that He was buried and rose again on the third day(1 Corinthians 15:4) and ascended into heaven to be at the right hand of the Father(Hebrews 10:12), and as you quoted in Ephesians 2, salvation is by this faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works. I would also have to point out that when James in James 2 is talking about showing faith by our works, he means showing our faith to other people by our works, as men cannot see the hearts of other men(1 Corinthians 2:11), God and only God can see the hearts of men(Luke 16:15, Proverbs 21:2, 1 Kings 8:39). Abraham, for example, did indeed show his faith by his works, but was justified before men by his works, not before God as God already knew Abraham's heart and what Abraham would do for his faith in God. God didn't need Abraham to show Him his faith by his works, God already knew what Abraham would do as God is omniscient and is present in and outside of time. It wouldn't make sense that God would need to see Abraham's faith by his works when God already knew Abraham's faith in his heart. God had Abraham shows his faith by his works for the record, for us, to show us a perfect faith. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 15:09:11 GMT
Love the topic already! Ok so we cannot enter with just being a good person with our good works because as said they're filthy rags according to scripture. Our salvation is only possible by His grace and if we have faith in Him. Then upon receiving this grace we must produce good works while living by faith. Ephesians Chapter 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.As Ephesians says salvation was a gift from God and nothing that we did or can do ourselves will give us salvation so we can skip the boasting and praise God only. And God created us for good works. So we must have both. Good works are proof of our faith in God. If we have no works then our faith is dead. Because if you can't back up what you believe with actions then where is your faith? James Chapter 2 Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Demons even have faith so faith alone means nothing or else even the demons would be saved. It faith then actions of our faith must follow. Or else it means nothing. I mostly agree. The part I disagree with is your claim to demons having faith, I do not believe that demons have faith necessarily. They know God exists, but knowing God exists isn't what saves us, it is faith that saves us. Romans 1 supports this; Romans 1:17-32 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. These people in Romans 1 that Paul is speaking of know of God's existence, but in knowing God's existence, because God had shown them that He exists so that they are without excuse, they glorified Him not as God but changed the glory and truth of God into a lie. So, God gave them up to uncleanness, vile affections, and gave them over to a reprobate mind. I believe demons and even Satan himself would fall under this same description. In pointing this out, I would have to argue that demons know God exists and that their knowing of God's existence is not the same thing as faith as defined in the Bible. The faith defined in the Bible is faith in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for the remission of our sins(Romans 3:19-31), that His blood is the propitiation for our sins(1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10), that He was buried and rose again on the third day(1 Corinthians 15:4) and ascended into heaven to be at the right hand of the Father(Hebrews 10:12), and as you quoted in Ephesians 2, salvation is by this faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works. I would also have to point out that when James in James 2 is talking about showing faith by our works, he means showing our faith to other people by our works, as men cannot see the hearts of other men(1 Corinthians 2:11), God and only God can see the hearts of men(Luke 16:15, Proverbs 21:2, 1 Kings 8:39). Abraham, for example, did indeed show his faith by his works, but was justified before men by his works, not before God as God already knew Abraham's heart and what Abraham would do for his faith in God. God didn't need Abraham to show Him his faith by his works, God already knew what Abraham would do as God is omniscient and is present in and outside of time. It wouldn't make sense that God would need to see Abraham's faith by his works when God already knew Abraham's faith in his heart. God had Abraham shows his faith by his works for the record, for us, to show us a perfect faith. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. No, I mean they know who Jesus is and even ask for permission to do something. If you recall the story of demons in Matthew you'll understand what I mean. 1) the demons know who Jesus is as in they identified Him. 2) they asked for His permission to go into pigs. By this I mean demons believe He is the Son of God, know His power, and ask for permission from someone above them. This is more faith than some people on Earth eveb have is my point. But demons don't worship Him is the only problem. 28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 15:44:33 GMT
I mostly agree. The part I disagree with is your claim to demons having faith, I do not believe that demons have faith necessarily. They know God exists, but knowing God exists isn't what saves us, it is faith that saves us. Romans 1 supports this; Romans 1:17-32 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. These people in Romans 1 that Paul is speaking of know of God's existence, but in knowing God's existence, because God had shown them that He exists so that they are without excuse, they glorified Him not as God but changed the glory and truth of God into a lie. So, God gave them up to uncleanness, vile affections, and gave them over to a reprobate mind. I believe demons and even Satan himself would fall under this same description. In pointing this out, I would have to argue that demons know God exists and that their knowing of God's existence is not the same thing as faith as defined in the Bible. The faith defined in the Bible is faith in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for the remission of our sins(Romans 3:19-31), that His blood is the propitiation for our sins(1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10), that He was buried and rose again on the third day(1 Corinthians 15:4) and ascended into heaven to be at the right hand of the Father(Hebrews 10:12), and as you quoted in Ephesians 2, salvation is by this faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works. I would also have to point out that when James in James 2 is talking about showing faith by our works, he means showing our faith to other people by our works, as men cannot see the hearts of other men(1 Corinthians 2:11), God and only God can see the hearts of men(Luke 16:15, Proverbs 21:2, 1 Kings 8:39). Abraham, for example, did indeed show his faith by his works, but was justified before men by his works, not before God as God already knew Abraham's heart and what Abraham would do for his faith in God. God didn't need Abraham to show Him his faith by his works, God already knew what Abraham would do as God is omniscient and is present in and outside of time. It wouldn't make sense that God would need to see Abraham's faith by his works when God already knew Abraham's faith in his heart. God had Abraham shows his faith by his works for the record, for us, to show us a perfect faith. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. No, I mean they know who Jesus is and even ask for permission to do something. If you recall the story of demons in Matthew you'll understand what I mean. 1) the demons know who Jesus is as in they identified Him. 2) they asked for His permission to go into pigs. By this I mean demons believe He is the Son of God, know His power, and ask for permission from someone above them. This is more faith than some people on Earth eveb have is my point. But demons don't worship Him is the only problem. 28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” Is there a difference between believing/faith and knowing? It would seem to me that those demons knew who Jesus was.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 16:02:48 GMT
No, I mean they know who Jesus is and even ask for permission to do something. If you recall the story of demons in Matthew you'll understand what I mean. 1) the demons know who Jesus is as in they identified Him. 2) they asked for His permission to go into pigs. By this I mean demons believe He is the Son of God, know His power, and ask for permission from someone above them. This is more faith than some people on Earth eveb have is my point. But demons don't worship Him is the only problem. 28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” Is there a difference in believing/faith and knowing? It would seem to me that those demons knew who Jesus was. Yes, there's a difference. Like if they were simply to say, "Hey, Jesus." or "There's that one who claims to be the Messiah." or something like this just means they know He's real as in exists like we all do. But they did more than say He existed. They called Him the Son of God which is more than what unbelievers, Jews, and other people would believe. This is what believers know to be a fact. So believers and demons know the real identify of Jesus as more than just a person. The other part is the demons asked Him if He came to turtore them before their time. This shows that they know the future and believe in what Jesus can do. They asked if Jesus was going to turtore them now or later. So this shows they know what happens to those who don't follow Him. Plus, shows they know the bible since it's in there as well. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, the devil used scripture as well to try to get to Jesus telling Jesus to jump off a high point because the angels would gaurd Him as the scripture says. Devil didn't care if angels will gaurd Him necessarily because he knew they would, but he wanted Jesus to be tricked and to actually jump giving him the upper hand. The other thing is the demons askes for permission which is what believers do too. We don't demand God to give us anything but it's more of, "If this is your will God please let me have this job or whatever." We only ask and God decides. Demons asked and God decides. Unbelievers do none of this but many unbelievers believe Jesus existed at one point or another in history but that's about all they know. Demons at least acknowledge Him as more than someone who existed and as someone with great authority over them.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 16:18:35 GMT
Is there a difference in believing/faith and knowing? It would seem to me that those demons knew who Jesus was. Yes, there's a difference. Like if they were simply to say, "Hey, Jesus." or "There's that one who claims to be the Messiah." or something like this just means they know He's real as in exists like we all do. But they did more than say He existed. They called Him the Son of God which is more than what unbelievers, Jews, and other people would believe. This is what believers know to be a fact. So believers and demons know the real identify of Jesus as more than just a person. The other part is the demons asked Him if He came to turtore them before their time. This shows that they know the future and believe in what Jesus can do. They asked if Jesus was going to turtore them now or later. So this shows they know what happens to those who don't follow Him. Plus, shows they know the bible since it's in there as well. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, the devil used scripture as well to try to get to Jesus telling Jesus to jump off a high point because the angels would gaurd Him as the scripture says. Devil didn't care if angels will gaurd Him necessarily because he knew they would, but he wanted Jesus to be tricked and to actually jump giving him the upper hand. The other thing is the demons askes for permission which is what believers do too. We don't demand God to give us anything but it's more of, "If this is your will God please let me have this job or whatever." We only ask and God decides. Demons asked and God decides. Unbelievers do none of this but many unbelievers believe Jesus existed at one point or another in history but that's about all they know. Demons at least acknowledge Him as more than someone who existed and as someone with great authority over them. Okay, well we know demons aren't going to heaven because they aren't saved even though they believe Jesus exists and in His power. So, why doesn't Romans 1 apply here? The people Paul described know/knew about God(we know Jesus is God in the flesh) because God showed them the truth and they rejected Him so God gave them up and over to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, vile affections, and a reprobate mind. Why don't demons fall into this category? I know demons aren't people, but it would seem that demons have rejected God, just as these that Paul is describing did, holding the truth in unrighteousness.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 16:31:01 GMT
Yes, there's a difference. Like if they were simply to say, "Hey, Jesus." or "There's that one who claims to be the Messiah." or something like this just means they know He's real as in exists like we all do. But they did more than say He existed. They called Him the Son of God which is more than what unbelievers, Jews, and other people would believe. This is what believers know to be a fact. So believers and demons know the real identify of Jesus as more than just a person. The other part is the demons asked Him if He came to turtore them before their time. This shows that they know the future and believe in what Jesus can do. They asked if Jesus was going to turtore them now or later. So this shows they know what happens to those who don't follow Him. Plus, shows they know the bible since it's in there as well. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, the devil used scripture as well to try to get to Jesus telling Jesus to jump off a high point because the angels would gaurd Him as the scripture says. Devil didn't care if angels will gaurd Him necessarily because he knew they would, but he wanted Jesus to be tricked and to actually jump giving him the upper hand. The other thing is the demons askes for permission which is what believers do too. We don't demand God to give us anything but it's more of, "If this is your will God please let me have this job or whatever." We only ask and God decides. Demons asked and God decides. Unbelievers do none of this but many unbelievers believe Jesus existed at one point or another in history but that's about all they know. Demons at least acknowledge Him as more than someone who existed and as someone with great authority over them. Okay, well we know demons aren't going to heaven because they aren't saved even though they believe Jesus exists and in His power. So, why doesn't Romans 1 apply here? The people Paul described know/knew about God(we know Jesus is God in the flesh) because God showed them the truth and they rejected Him so God gave them up and over to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, vile affections, and a reprobate mind. Why don't demons fall into this category? I know demons aren't people, but it would seem that demons have rejected God just as these that Paul is describing did, holding the truth in unrighteousness. Simple. As Romans 1 says... 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became foolsThe people and the demons know God exists and they know everything but they refuse to give God the glory. As from the past when the angels rebelled they all just continue to rebell against God while still knowing their doom in the end. Pride? Giving someone else glory isn't really what most want to do except Christians alone. So yet in a way they're wise for knowing the truth which most can't realize but they become foolish it what they decided to do with this knowledge as verse 22 states.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 16:49:10 GMT
Okay, well we know demons aren't going to heaven because they aren't saved even though they believe Jesus exists and in His power. So, why doesn't Romans 1 apply here? The people Paul described know/knew about God(we know Jesus is God in the flesh) because God showed them the truth and they rejected Him so God gave them up and over to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, vile affections, and a reprobate mind. Why don't demons fall into this category? I know demons aren't people, but it would seem that demons have rejected God just as these that Paul is describing did, holding the truth in unrighteousness. Simple. As Romans 1 says... 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became foolsThe people and the demons know God exists and they know everything but they refuse to give God the glory. As from the past when the angels rebelled they all just continue to rebell against God while still knowing their doom in the end. Pride? Giving someone else glory isn't really what most want to do except Christians alone. So yet in a way they're wise for knowing the truth which most can't realize but they become foolish it what they decided to do with this knowledge as verse 22 states. Okay, so I think we agree here. We have established demons don't have the saving faith, but they believe Jesus exists and in His power and the Bible even directly says demons believe in one God as we do(James 2:19). But, how can you compare a demon to someone who is saved, but might not have the works to back their faith? What about Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." and what I had pointed out about James 2 and that when James is saying faith without works is dead faith, that he means our faith is dead to other people, not to God as God and only God can see our hearts?
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 13, 2018 17:15:47 GMT
Simple. As Romans 1 says... 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became foolsThe people and the demons know God exists and they know everything but they refuse to give God the glory. As from the past when the angels rebelled they all just continue to rebell against God while still knowing their doom in the end. Pride? Giving someone else glory isn't really what most want to do except Christians alone. So yet in a way they're wise for knowing the truth which most can't realize but they become foolish it what they decided to do with this knowledge as verse 22 states. Okay, so I think we agree here. We have established demons don't have the saving faith, but they believe Jesus exists and in His power and the Bible even directly says demons believe in one God as we do(James 2:19). But, how can you compare a demon to someone who is saved, but might not have the works to back their faith? What about Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." and what I had pointed out about James 2 and that when James is saying faith without works is dead faith, that he means our faith is dead to other people, not to God as God and only God can see our hearts? Saved but can't back it up? I could be confused or just lack of sleep xD A saved person must back up their faith with works. Because as those verses above in Romans 1 said they must give God glory. If they do not then they are not saved like the demons aren't. They have some faith there but not the saving faith because savinf faith produces works. As Ephesians 2:10 states that if we belong to Him we are His workmanship that does good works. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Abraham's faith was justified and made perfect when he provided the works. These worka must be seen to other people too! Matthew 5:16 says 16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." When Jesus spoke parables like the Good Sarmaritan and other parables, He didn't want us to just listen to them. He wanted us to know how to show these works to people around us. This will show if we built our house on a rock...or sadly on sand. Matthew 7:24-27 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 13, 2018 18:06:28 GMT
Okay, so I think we agree here. We have established demons don't have the saving faith, but they believe Jesus exists and in His power and the Bible even directly says demons believe in one God as we do(James 2:19). But, how can you compare a demon to someone who is saved, but might not have the works to back their faith? What about Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." and what I had pointed out about James 2 and that when James is saying faith without works is dead faith, that he means our faith is dead to other people, not to God as God and only God can see our hearts? Saved but can't back it up? I could be confused or just lack of sleep xD A saved person must back up their faith with works. Because as those verses above in Romans 1 said they must give God glory. If they do not then they are not saved like the demons aren't. They have some faith there but not the saving faith because savinf faith produces works. As Ephesians 2:10 states that if we belong to Him we are His workmanship that does good works. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Abraham's faith was justified and made perfect when he provided the works. These worka must be seen to other people too! Matthew 5:16 says 16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." When Jesus spoke parables like the Good Sarmaritan and other parables, He didn't want us to just listen to them. He wanted us to know how to show these works to people around us. This will show if we built our house on a rock...or sadly on sand. Matthew 7:24-27 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” You said "A saved person must back up their faith with works." and "These works must be seen to other people too!" But wait, what about Romans 4:2? "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Doesn't this mean Abraham isn't justified before God by works? Even you pointed out in your first post how our works are filthy rags before God. Even Titus 3:5 says, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Yes, Ephesian 2:10 says, 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It doesn't say "we are saved by our good works", it says in the two verses before "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:"..."Not of works" and then in verse 10 it says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,"..."created" as in born again(John 3:3) into a new creature(2 Corinthians 5:17)also known as the inward man(2 Corinthians 4:16) "in Christ Jesus", that is our faith in Him, "unto"(to do) good works, not BY good works. I mean, if we had to do good works to be saved, it is no longer "the gift of God", because gifts are free and we know salvation is a free gift(Romans 5:15-18). So, then how is it that a person must back their faith with good works before God for salvation? Sorry, I am really not trying to confuse you at all. I'm simply going to the scripture and showing you what it says.
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