Onetrack
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Post by Onetrack on Dec 8, 2017 2:45:05 GMT
RT had this interesting video today, thoughts?
Fragments of an ancient Koran have been found to pre-date Mohammed.
Using carbon dating to analyze the document scientist have concluded that this version of the Koran was in existence before old Mohammed.
Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilizes, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Mohammed and the Companions.'
Looks like Mohammed and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Mo receiving a revelation from Allah.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 8, 2017 4:14:45 GMT
I don't find this surprising...
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Post by ethosist on Jan 9, 2018 17:22:20 GMT
The Catholic church had created mohammod and the Koran
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Post by ethosist on Jan 9, 2018 17:27:11 GMT
When you read the Koran Jesus is mentioned highly 24 times and mohammod 4 times lowly,and the first part of the books teaching is opposite on second part do to the Catholic change of mind of Muslims and cut them off once they realized there error
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 10, 2018 8:24:04 GMT
The Catholic church had created mohammod and the Koran I believe this actually.
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amenemhab
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 11, 2018 11:33:40 GMT
The video doesn’t provide enough information to settle this question—although it should spark viewers into researching it a bit deeper, especially with Google making this a much easier task than I recall it once being. Two large issues come to mind:
Consonance with the text’s history: Few scholars credit the notion that a Quranic manuscript could predate Muhammad, most taking the view that the text’s original composition, by more than one author, took place at least 20 years after his death. Muhammad is well-documented in period sources outside the religion. None of these sources mention this religion, its followers, its prophet or military conflicts connected with its expansion before about 620 to 650 CE.
Carbon dating protocols: Each laboratory maintains its own standards. A carbon-14 test does not give the absolute calendar date when an archaeological artifact was made or a biological organism had lived. Rather, it gives what’s termed a “conventional radiocarbon age” for the sample. The CRA is affected mainly by the atmospheric concentration of 14C at the time when metabolic processes (which stop when organisms perish) deposit carbon in the sample, and to a lesser extent by matabolism’s tendency to sort carbon isotopes—12C, 13C and 14C—by weight, the lighter isotopes usually enriched in tissues, versus in the ambient environment from which an organism got the carbon, as food if animal, as CO2 in air if plant.
Because the flux of cosmic rays that form 14C in our atmosphere has varied over time, the CRA is nonlinear—and, derived from tree ring studies, not precisely known. Revisions have been made over the years, with no assurance the current scale is correct. In addition to the CRA’s inherent bias, sources of error in a sample include contamination by modern carbon, often C14 created in the above-ground nuclear blasts of the 1940s and ‘50s, but also plant roots, bacteria and fungi, or the soil a fingerprint or careless tool can introduce. In short, radiocarbon dates are approximate.
The University of Birmingham claims only that its manuscript dates very close to the time of Muhammad, perhaps with the animal whose hide was used for the parchment slaughtered during his lifetime. Here, we note that that the parchment’s manufacture could have occurred many years before it was written on. Scholars believe the Quranic text reached the form we have it today under the reign of Caliph Uthman, circa 650 CE.
The Beta Analytics web site offers a nice introduction to 14C dating.Beta Analytics www.radiocarbon.com/about-carbon-dating.htmUniversity of Birmingham’s Quran pages www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 12:00:07 GMT
islam is an import of greek culture.
The old warlords of hellensitic civilization was incorporated. Alexander is mentioned as zulqarnain
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 11, 2018 12:18:05 GMT
Islam is simply an Arabic version of Judeo-Christianity
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 18:54:43 GMT
But with all respects to the upper posts, Koran can't be transferred to nor Greeks, nor Judeo-Christianity, nor 'Vatican tales'.
The notion of God in Islam is different and more complex than in other monoteistic religions. Besides of european influeces, Koran has many ancient Persian believeings in the book and many zoroastrisms things... For example, spirits - genes, and other creatures.
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Post by albertodelbosso on Jan 19, 2018 8:03:50 GMT
A lot of the comments in here try to relate Islam to some religion but if we wanted to take any religion and relate it to all religions, I am sure you would find a dimension of the religion that can be found in every religion. Its arrogant to write a statement when you haven't at least investigated on the religion with more than idle chatter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 10:11:36 GMT
A lot of the comments in here try to relate Islam to some religion but if we wanted to take any religion and relate it to all religions, I am sure you would find a dimension of the religion that can be found in every religion. Its arrogant to write a statement when you haven't at least investigated on the religion with more than idle chatter. You can't just barrier people relate one religion to another 'cause we live in one world. Separating us reveales nothing more but an ignorance. There's no 'specialities', or 'choseness' now, 'cause everbody kbow a lot of information about other cultures or religions. Moreover, we urgently need to do it. You was absolutely right about 'idle chatter' character of the most of such chatters. Yes, it is. But some people can get an information 'bout it just from conversations, because we can't be specialists in every field. But it's not a barrier 'till ones will make finished assumptions.I mean no one can make the ultimate decisions not being under some special circumstances. So, it's not bad to discuss 'bout other religions. And relating one religion to another is the one of the best way to understand many religions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 15:17:08 GMT
The Catholic contempt towards Muslims is very ancient and severe. Why would they deliberately give birth to a rival system?
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amenemhab
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 19, 2018 18:13:19 GMT
The notion of God in Islam is different and more complex than in other monotheistic religions. Which makes sense, as the Quran was composed at a time when legal theory and the literary arts had advanced greatly, the Hebrew bible at least 1000 years old, the New Testament, about 500. The Islamic scholars who worked on Quranic redaction could consult rabbinic and Christian material that didn’t exist when the earlier bibles had been written.
Nonetheless, Quran was recognized as inadequate for the needs of the new faith. Therefore, hadiths, sayings of the prophet, were added to the text collection, alongside a growing series of legal rulings and commentaries.
As for interreligious barriers, these may break down in a climate of interfaith dialog in the West, yet we can expect them to persist elsewhere. Even the West lacks general concord here, its peoples united rather by shared commitments to parliamentary democracy. Islam’s theory of Jesus differs too much from its Christian counterparts that reconciling them is impossible.
That’s why I like the concept of separation of church and state, which most of the Middle East hasn’t embraced, although Muslim Indonesia and Malaysia have—an example forcing us to conclude the Mideast nations might do so eventually. Lebanon in particular has made progress in that direction, yet remains beset by external interference in its affairs, with the associated invasions and civil wars.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 21:01:06 GMT
The notion of God in Islam is different and more complex than in other monotheistic religions. Which makes sense, as the Quran was composed at a time when legal theory and the literary arts had advanced greatly, the Hebrew bible at least 1000 years old, the New Testament, about 500. The Islamic scholars who worked on Quranic redaction could consult rabbinic and Christian material that didn’t exist when the earlier bibles had been written.
Nonetheless, Quran was recognized as inadequate for the needs of the new faith. Therefore, hadiths, sayings of the prophet, were added to the text collection, alongside a growing series of legal rulings and commentaries.
As for interreligious barriers, these may break down in a climate of interfaith dialog in the West, yet we can expect them to persist elsewhere. Even the West lacks general concord here, its peoples united rather by shared commitments to parliamentary democracy. Islam’s theory of Jesus differs too much from its Christian counterparts that reconciling them is impossible.
That’s why I like the concept of separation of church and state, which most of the Middle East hasn’t embraced, although Muslim Indonesia and Malaysia have—an example forcing us to conclude the Mideast nations might do so eventually. Lebanon in particular has made progress in that direction, yet remains beset by external interference in its affairs, with the associated invasions and civil wars.I'm very appreciate your explanations, Amenemhad! Thank you! Your explainings have always high-scientific argumentations. So, it's really nice to me being able to speak with you! Ok, now some stuff that I wanted to say. Honestly, I don't know what to say about possibilities of muslims' addings to Koran. You know, I think that we can maintain that such addings are rather good than bad? I'm sure in it just because I don't believe in individual character of Jews or Christian writings. I know I can't argue atout this very strongly, so I need to be prepared for some answers. Why do I think that "The Old testament" and "The New Testaments" are both not unique? I'll give just a few examples: K. Jung "Job" (about book of Job) and works dedicated to 'interpolations in the new testament'. So, I think it would be enough. So, what premisess do I hold? I think that the notion of muslims' god (aka 'Allah') is the wonderful examle regardless of redactions and consultings. It doesn't matter, as for me, at what circumstances have been happening this because I don't care about history how Koran has been created. I don't even think that our languages are pretty unique - and this point of view meets some upholdings thesises, cause we use no absolutely unique languages. But, as like Peter Strawson's theory 'bout individual objects ('individual ontological statuses of objects'), who taught that there were no strong possibilities to get some pretty unique examples of the one element or object because of not-equivalent charachteristics of such objects... What do I mean? I want to say that even if the notion of muslims' god is unique (and I think so) it's not a barrier, but rather better position for us to cooperate with them. I hold the view that we all (all the people) are alike, but surely have many similarities. And our differencies are higher than our similarities in the 'spirit', 'individual' and 'personality' statuses, but our differencies are lower than our similarities in the common conditions, in our language using, in our looks, in our habits etc. I don't know how crearly I have explained my point of view. I hope it is understandable... Thank you, again! And forgive me my poor Engleash... (^_^)
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amenemhab
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Post by amenemhab on Jan 20, 2018 1:19:22 GMT
Honestly, I don't know what to say about possibilities of Muslims’ adding to Koran. You know, I think that we can maintain that such additions are rather good than bad. I'm sure...because I don't believe in individual [authorship] of Jewish or Christian writings... [For] example, works dedicated to interpolations in the New Testament. I’ve parsed a bit to get a clearer quote. I hope you don’t mind my editing your words. A miniature example of how a prophet’s speeches are processed by his students, and hashed again as new editions of that prophet’s books come out. But your English is good—I assume you’re using it as a foreign language. I barely read German with a dictionary, and can’t write much in it. ~
The text of the Quran is now fixed, and has been since 650 CE or so. It is unlikely to change in future. As for additional material, the hadiths are not the Quran itself, of course. They are not scripture for Muslims. They are just reports on what Muhammad said to his followers, for use in interpreting the Quran.
The Quran was written in a notoriously oblique style, in Arabic. About 20% of a typical English Quran translation consists of words or phrases which don’t appear in the original, but have been inserted for clarity. Yet this practice of paraphrasing introduces bias into the translation, as we must trust the translator’s opinion on meaning.
You are correct that no book of scripture is the work of a single author. All were edited after their first drafts had been set down, by clerical committees bringing agendas to the table. The Hebrew bible (Old Testament) is worst affected by this, as it was open for redaction from about 750 BCE, when the first lines of Isaiah were written, to about 200 BCE, as it reached the form we have today. The Christian New Testament was likewise edited up to about 400 CE or so. Interpolation, the insertion of extra words by editors, was a part of this “shoe polishing” of the books.
Resistance to making further changes has prevailed since the closure dates I mentioned above. Too many people by this time were committed to the text as it stood—It was read aloud in liturgy for everyday worship. The Quran is least affected by redaction, as its “open edit” period may have lasted only 30 years. With all these texts, Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, original versions are unfortunately lost. We’ll never know exactly how they were changed. We do know that an early version of Isaiah contained only chapters 1 to 39, the rest being added later.I don't care about history how Koran has been created. I don't even think that [reference in] our languages…is unique. I agree with you that human languages offer only limited precision of reference. Yet history of composition matters a great deal, to anyone wanting to understand religious texts. There is never any single “true” interpretation of a text. Opinions vary. We’ve had to guess some things, because the classical languages, spoken in a world very different from today’s, are dead now.
I’m not too familiar with Strawson. I did read his 1969 lecture, Meaning and Truth, where he said that human language isn’t like the formal languages used for logic and mathematics. I think he was right; so much of what we mean lies outside the words we say. Truth values in logic must be unambiguous; but in our conversations, truth is often left up to the listener. In many ways, humans are similar to one another across cultures. Their kids all need the same vitamins and minerals to grow up strong. Our brains all share a common anatomy, which implies those parts of our thinking not tied to culture will proceed the same way, informed by the same sensory data, expressed as behavior through a single Chomsky-style universal grammar.
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