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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 13, 2020 4:22:17 GMT
I only attend and would only attend a church that preaches correctly on this. There were also some people around the time of Jesus who were talking about marriage and He told them they were wrong in their knowledge. And many people still are wrong on this today. This is what Jesus said to such people.... Mark 12:24 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God If these people actually knew the scriptures then they'd know that spirits do not marry! But they didn't know as some do not know now. Let's see how Jesus corrects them. Mark 12:25 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. This verse is very clear that angels do not marry and one day we will be "like" angels and will not marry either or be married to anyone as spirits any longer after we die. We're only married to someone until we die. Then marriage is over! The word "like" in that verse is a simile. It is comparing two things. These two things are not identical but have similarities. So we will not be angels Jesus is saying but we will have some things in common with angels. Angels are spirits and they do not marry which is how we will become like them. We will be spirits one day with no marriages. Why is this important? A few reasons why. 1) What spirits exists now? We have good/godly and bad/evil/unlean spirits. a. God is a Spirit and not a person. He may have taken the form of a human at one point but He's not a human. He is God, a Spirit. John 4:24 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. b. Angels are spirits. They are good/godly spirits because they follow God and not Satan. Psalm 104:4 4 Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire. c.Satan, the Devil, is a spirit too. He was the greatest Archangel in God's kingdom but he lost that right. He chose sin. Those spirits who choose sin are called fallen angels, devils, unclean spirits, evil spirits, etc. Revelation 12:9 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. These were demons/evil/unclean spirits who were cast out of heaven with Satan who was their leading evil angel. So they were all just good angels or godly sprits until one high ranking angel/spirit decided to sin and his fellow angel/spirit friends followed suit. Then they were cast out of heaven. They were no longer allowed to be in a kingdom of godly spirits of God. d. Demons are also spirits. These are the angels who turned evil and got kicked out of heaven. Revelation 12:7 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought. Michael was the next highest ranking angel so he fought Satan (also called dragon) and the bad angels with his good angels. And angels are spirits as we already know. So why is establishing that they're spirits important? Well, good spirits (God and His angels) and bad spirits (Satan and his angels) have a few differences in how they act. 1) God, who is a spirit will only communicate to us in a way we will understand and in a way we will have good will. Best method for this, other than giving us His Word/Scripture, is to come talk to us in person! God temporary became human is says to help save us from Satan and ending up in hell with him. John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He was ONLY begotten of the FATHER it says. This means He was only begotten of God and not of a human. He's not human. Becoming a human temporary is not being human permanently. I dressed up as an angel before but I am not an angel. Jesus wasn't begotten of Mary or of Joseph. He was only begotten of God it says. Only begotten of a Father, not of any mother. The verse is loud and clear. A surrogate is not a biological mother and not even allowed. Only God can do this process when entering the world as a human. 2) Angels (the good kind) also take the form of humans to talk to us when needed. Genesis 19:1 19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. What did these angels look like? People! Well, technically men. Can't be women. Genesis 19:5 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” See...God/Jesus came as a male child and grew up. He was a human for a while to teach us things before returning back to His normal world..the spirit world. And the good angels take form of a men when they make visits. At least no female ones mentioned anywhere. It's because of rank. Men are more dominate. Christ/God is head of man and man is head of woman. Ultimately, God is the head of all. Now with the evil spirits...they take different forms. They don't like to appear as humans and be straightforward and honest..they like to hurt you and deceive you. So these evil spirits will only enter your body to possess and hurt you or they'll deceive. They don't want you to go to heaven but to end up in hell. Satan the leader of them likes to mostly take the form of a serpent or the appearance of a good angel to deceive you. He received Adam and Eve as a talking serpent. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 2 Corinthians 11:14 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. And his evil angels love to possess you. Acts 19:13 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” Anyway, God, Satan, and the good and bad angels are all spirits as it says. And just as this verse says...these spirits do not marry! Mark 12:25 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.Male and females were only created for this world and so was marriage. Because God wanted us to marry and then reproduce. This was established for humanity. Not for spirits. So those saying that spirits married ever are lying. Spirits do not marry. Only humans marry. And only human males with human females are allowed to marry on earth as God established. Genesis 6:2 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. So males saw females and married them that verse says. Some people are making a mistake and saying angels or spirits married females. Spirits do not marry, God already told is this. Such people are being deceived by Satan if they think this is true. Remember what Jesus said.... Mark 12:24 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God And if you know the scriptures then you won't make that mistake. Mark 12:25 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. God makes it loud and clear who the sons of God are and daughters of men are in Scripture so people don't fall for Satan's lies. That's my next thread. We have sons of God and sons of Satan as well as daughters of God and dauthers of Satan on earth today. These are also the goats and the sheep as God calls them. Plus, since godly angels can appear as humans, be nice to all! You might not know if it's human or angel Hebrews 13:2 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 13, 2020 5:30:48 GMT
Elizabeth , Jesus was talking about the resurrection with the Sadducees. It seems pretty evident to me that we will have bodies and won't be as you say "spirits with no marriage." Jesus says that angels dont marry, he did not say that angels can't marry. Granting that angels are spirits, it doesn't necessarily follow that this condition is fixed. Perhaps its in the power of angels to assume a body and pass a seed to human women, which would be a sin on the angel's part.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 13, 2020 5:36:04 GMT
Elizabeth , Jesus was talking about the resurrection with the Sadducees. It seems pretty evident to me that we will have bodies and won't be as you say "spirits with no marriage." Jesus says that angels dont marry, he did not say that angels can't marry. Granting that angels are spirits, it doesn't necessarily follow that this condition is fixed. Perhaps its in the power of angels to assume a body and pass a seed to human women, which would be a sin on the angel's part. The convo didn't apply to just sudducess though. He was saying how it will be after the resurrection. There will be no marriages there just as with angels. Angels don't reproduce. So just as God said males and females were created on earth for marriage and families.
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 13, 2020 5:44:41 GMT
Elizabeth , No where in scripture does it say that angels can't reproduce. Thats an assumption that has no biblical standing.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 13, 2020 11:22:40 GMT
Elizabeth , No where in scripture does it say that angels can't reproduce. Thats an assumption that has no biblical standing. Just as nowhere in scripture it says angels can reproduce, an assumption with no biblical standing. The idea that angels(or demons, who are fallen angels) can reproduce has to be read into the text(eisegesis). A contextual analysis of the text(exegesis) does not give any indication of spirits having the ability to create and therefore has absolutely zero biblical standing. This entire subject is based on a complete misunderstanding of the text, or, a completely eisegetical interpretation of the scriptures with the intention of pushing a particular agenda, and has been long long refuted by simple analysis of specific verses and passages which point at a differentiation between angels and men. The issue comes in at the definition of the "sons of God". In the New Testament, the sons of God are men who are saved. 1 John 3:1-3 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. In the Old Testament, sons of God is used, in the Masoretic text, many times and would seemingly describe angels. Well, in the Septuagint, in the book of Job where "sons of God" is used more than in any other book, the Septuagint says they are angels... LXX 2012 Job 1:2 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. LXX 2012 Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord. LXX 2012 Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice. However, in Genesis 6:2 and 4 it says "sons of God", LXX 2012 Genesis 6:2 that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose. LXX 2012 Genesis 6:4 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown. With the Septuagint, Job cannot be used to define "sons of God" in Genesis. We have only one choice now and that is to use the New Testament(also written in Greek like the Septuagint) to define the "sons of God" and that would be that they are indeed men of God, not angels. Moreover, it would be more consistent to use the New Testament's contextual definition of "sons of God" throughout the entire Bible. Why? Well there is no way at all that sons of God in the books of John, Romans, Philippians, and 1 John would ever be defined contextually as fallen angels, otherwise it is saying that men have the power to become fallen angels, fallen angels are led by the Spirit of God, fallen angels have received Jesus as their Savior, fallen angels are the light of the world, fallen angels hold forth the word of life, and fallen angels will be like Christ. Sounds like some prophettom twisted interpretation of scripture influenced by demons, right? Consistency is one of the elements that gives inspired scripture its legitimacy, otherwise it is considered apocryphal. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 13, 2020 11:30:15 GMT
Elizabeth , No where in scripture does it say that angels can't reproduce. Thats an assumption that has no biblical standing. . We read: "about them also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying:' behold, the Lord is coming with the darkness of his Holy Angels - to make judgment on all and to convict all the wicked among them in all the works that their wickedness has produced, and in all the cruel words that were uttered against him by wicked sinners'"(Judahs'.1:14-15). Here is also a reference to the sin of the angels: "and the angels who have not preserved their dignity, but who have left their home, are kept in eternal bonds, under darkness, for the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, like them fornicating and walking after other flesh, subjected to the penalty of eternal fire, set an example" (Jude.1:6-7). Probably was a group of angels who sinned like Satan and other angels, but we can not say that those angels who are now in Paradise are able to reproduce because there is no permission for this.In General there are many different theories about this Scripture for example John Chrysostom directly wrote that this does not apply to angels....but there are probably many layers of Scripture that don't contradict each other. In some places of Scripture angels are called sons of God( bney Elohim) ( Job 1.6; Job 2.1; Job 38.7 ) The opinion that "sons of God" should be understood as the pious descendants of Seth. On his side is the majority of the famous exegetical works of the fathers of the Church (John Chrysostom, Ephraim the Syrian, blessed Theodoret, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, Augustine, and others.) In General there is no one interpretation and the most correct view is that Scripture has many layers.
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Post by Elizabeth on Jan 27, 2020 3:28:56 GMT
Elizabeth , No where in scripture does it say that angels can't reproduce. Thats an assumption that has no biblical standing. Just as nowhere in scripture it says angels can reproduce, an assumption with no biblical standing. The idea that angels(or demons, who are fallen angels) can reproduce has to be read into the text(eisegesis). A contextual analysis of the text(exegesis) does not give any indication of spirits having the ability to create and therefore has absolutely zero biblical standing. This entire subject is based on a complete misunderstanding of the text, or, a completely eisegetical interpretation of the scriptures with the intention of pushing a particular agenda, and has been long long refuted by simple analysis of specific verses and passages which point at a differentiation between angels and men. The issue comes in at the definition of the "sons of God". In the New Testament, the sons of God are men who are saved. 1 John 3:1-3 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. In the Old Testament, sons of God is used, in the Masoretic text, many times and would seemingly describe angels. Well, in the Septuagint, in the book of Job where "sons of God" is used more than in any other book, the Septuagint says they are angels... LXX 2012 Job 1:2 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. LXX 2012 Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord. LXX 2012 Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice. However, in Genesis 6:2 and 4 it says "sons of God", LXX 2012 Genesis 6:2 that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose. LXX 2012 Genesis 6:4 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown. With the Septuagint, Job cannot be used to define "sons of God" in Genesis. We have only one choice now and that is to use the New Testament(also written in Greek like the Septuagint) to define the "sons of God" and that would be that they are indeed men of God, not angels. Moreover, it would be more consistent to use the New Testament's contextual definition of "sons of God" throughout the entire Bible. Why? Well there is no way at all that sons of God in the books of John, Romans, Philippians, and 1 John would ever be defined contextually as fallen angels, otherwise it is saying that men have the power to become fallen angels, fallen angels are led by the Spirit of God, fallen angels have received Jesus as their Savior, fallen angels are the light of the world, fallen angels hold forth the word of life, and fallen angels will be like Christ. Sounds like some prophettom twisted interpretation of scripture influenced by demons, right? Consistency is one of the elements that gives inspired scripture its legitimacy, otherwise it is considered apocryphal. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Well, Jesus clearly says no angels are reproducing in New Testament. When they asked Him who will be married after we die here, Jesus says no one will be married because we'll be like the angels. That's easy to understand. And Paul says that you're only married until you're spouse died and then marriage ends. This limits the marriage to Earthly beings. The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 This verse says that when the spouse dies the marriage is over. The living person can remarry because they're no longer married to anyone. The other interesting part is this... 1 Corinthians 7:32-33 ....He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. Those who are married are of the world. This world. They're married in this world. None of that stuff applies outside the world. It's sad that people don't trust God when He says marriage ends at death. There's no such thing beyond death. We're just in enternity with God or satan then not to anyone else. Anyone messing with the bible will be punished the bible says and many people add stuff to it or remove verses. Satan really is out to corrupt the world.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jan 27, 2020 18:32:07 GMT
Just as nowhere in scripture it says angels can reproduce, an assumption with no biblical standing. The idea that angels(or demons, who are fallen angels) can reproduce has to be read into the text(eisegesis). A contextual analysis of the text(exegesis) does not give any indication of spirits having the ability to create and therefore has absolutely zero biblical standing. This entire subject is based on a complete misunderstanding of the text, or, a completely eisegetical interpretation of the scriptures with the intention of pushing a particular agenda, and has been long long refuted by simple analysis of specific verses and passages which point at a differentiation between angels and men. The issue comes in at the definition of the "sons of God". In the New Testament, the sons of God are men who are saved. 1 John 3:1-3 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. In the Old Testament, sons of God is used, in the Masoretic text, many times and would seemingly describe angels. Well, in the Septuagint, in the book of Job where "sons of God" is used more than in any other book, the Septuagint says they are angels... LXX 2012 Job 1:2 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. LXX 2012 Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord. LXX 2012 Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice. However, in Genesis 6:2 and 4 it says "sons of God", LXX 2012 Genesis 6:2 that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose. LXX 2012 Genesis 6:4 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown. With the Septuagint, Job cannot be used to define "sons of God" in Genesis. We have only one choice now and that is to use the New Testament(also written in Greek like the Septuagint) to define the "sons of God" and that would be that they are indeed men of God, not angels. Moreover, it would be more consistent to use the New Testament's contextual definition of "sons of God" throughout the entire Bible. Why? Well there is no way at all that sons of God in the books of John, Romans, Philippians, and 1 John would ever be defined contextually as fallen angels, otherwise it is saying that men have the power to become fallen angels, fallen angels are led by the Spirit of God, fallen angels have received Jesus as their Savior, fallen angels are the light of the world, fallen angels hold forth the word of life, and fallen angels will be like Christ. Sounds like some prophettom twisted interpretation of scripture influenced by demons, right? Consistency is one of the elements that gives inspired scripture its legitimacy, otherwise it is considered apocryphal. Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Well, Jesus clearly says no angels are reproducing in New Testament. When they asked Him who will be married after we die here, Jesus says no one will be married because we'll be like the angels. That's easy to understand. And Paul says that you're only married until you're spouse died and then marriage ends. This limits the marriage to Earthly beings. The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 This verse says that when the spouse dies the marriage is over. The living person can remarry because they're no longer married to anyone. The other interesting part is this... 1 Corinthians 7:32-33 ....He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. Those who are married are of the world. This world. They're married in this world. None of that stuff applies outside the world. It's sad that people don't trust God when He says marriage ends at death. There's no such thing beyond death. We're just in enternity with God or satan then not to anyone else. Anyone messing with the bible will be punished the bible says and many people add stuff to it or remove verses. Satan really is out to corrupt the world. Yea I agree with this. It is very clear that in the Bible that marriage is not between man and spirits; one must read that into the text to come to that conclusion.
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Jan 27, 2020 19:38:28 GMT
Exactly. "Like" is what Jesus answered to pharisees. I think the speculations about the matter were reproduces by gnostics and their circles.
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KGrim
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Post by KGrim on Jan 27, 2020 21:17:49 GMT
DKTrav88 , I disagree and assert that the text is ambiguous and that it doesn't matter if you are coming to the conclusion that spirits can or cannot procreate with humans that you are reading into the text either way. The bible has to be read contextually and you can only read it contextually if you accept the holy traditions as the needed context. And what does tradition say? Well Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Commodianus, Athenagoras and Tertullian seem to be on the same page. "In the days of Noah He [God] justly brought on the deluge for the purpose of extinguishing that most infamous race of men then existent, who could not bring forth fruit to God, since the angels that sinned had commingled with them, and [acted as He did] in order that He might put a check upon the sins of these men, but [that at the same time] He might preserve the archetype, the formation of Adam." - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies" (IV.XXXVI.4) "Enoch, too, pleasing god, without circumcision, discharged the office of God's legate to the angels although he was a man, and was translated, and is preserved until now as a witness of the just judgment of God, because the angels when they had transgressed fell to the earth for judgement, but the man who pleased [God] was translated for salvation." - Irenaeus, "Against Heresies" (IV.XVI.2) "But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons . . ." - Justin Martyr, "The Second Apology of Justin" (V) "When Almighty God, to beautify the nature of the world, willed that that earth should be visited by angels, when they were sent down they despised His laws. Such was the beauty of women, that it turned them aside; so that, being contaminated, they could not return to heaven. Rebels from God, they uttered words against Him. Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them; and from their seed giants are said to have been born. By them arts were made known in the earth, and they taught the dyeing of wool, and everything which is done; and to them, when they died, men erected images. But the Almighty, because they were of an evil seed, did not approve that, when dead, they should be brought back from death. Whence wandering they now subvert many bodies, and it is such as these especially that ye this day worship and pray to as gods" - Commodianus, "Instructions" (III). "For this is the office of the angels,—to exercise providence for God over the things created and ordered by Him; so that God may have the universal and general providence of the whole, while the particular parts are provided for by the angels appointed over them. Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power; and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them by you, and others faithless), so is it among the angels. Some, free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants. - Athenagoras," "A Plea for the Christians" (XXIV) "These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged." - Athenagoras, "A Plea for the Christians" (XXV) "I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather’s “grace in the sight of God,” and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house. If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration,after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra. But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that “every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired." By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude." - Tertullian "On Apparel of Women" (I.III)
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Clovis Merovingian
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Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 27, 2020 22:03:27 GMT
Elizabeth , No where in scripture does it say that angels can't reproduce. Thats an assumption that has no biblical standing. . We read: "about them also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying:' behold, the Lord is coming with the darkness of his Holy Angels - to make judgment on all and to convict all the wicked among them in all the works that their wickedness has produced, and in all the cruel words that were uttered against him by wicked sinners'"(Judahs'.1:14-15). Here is also a reference to the sin of the angels: "and the angels who have not preserved their dignity, but who have left their home, are kept in eternal bonds, under darkness, for the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, like them fornicating and walking after other flesh, subjected to the penalty of eternal fire, set an example" (Jude.1:6-7). Probably was a group of angels who sinned like Satan and other angels, but we can not say that those angels who are now in Paradise are able to reproduce because there is no permission for this.In General there are many different theories about this Scripture for example John Chrysostom directly wrote that this does not apply to angels....but there are probably many layers of Scripture that don't contradict each other. In some places of Scripture angels are called sons of God( bney Elohim) ( Job 1.6; Job 2.1; Job 38.7 ) The opinion that "sons of God" should be understood as the pious descendants of Seth. On his side is the majority of the famous exegetical works of the fathers of the Church (John Chrysostom, Ephraim the Syrian, blessed Theodoret, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, Augustine, and others.) In General there is no one interpretation and the most correct view is that Scripture has many layers. I have bolded a second part in your quote from Jude, "like them fornicating and walking after other flesh." This verse is saying that Sodom and Gomorrah are "like them fornicating and walking after other flesh". Like who, you ask? Like the angels mentioned in the sentence before. The other flesh the Sodomites went after were the angels they threatened to rape. Inversely the other flesh that the angels fornicated with and walked after were the daughters of men (human women) in the book of Genesis. Angels in heaven cannot marry or have children but angels who have left their heavenly home and have not preserved their dignity can and did. The book of Jude is interesting because Jude quotes the Book of Enoch in it “And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him’” (Jude 14-15). The book of Enoch reads thusly, Enoch I 1:9 "And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." Jude makes reference to the Book of Enoch many times in the Book of Jude. He is making reference to the Book of Enoch in Diamond's quote of the sins of the angels. In the Book of Enoch, a group of angels lusts after mortal men, breeds with them and births the Nephilim giants. God chains them, "in eternal bonds, under darkness, for the judgment of the great day" at the end of the book. The Book of Enoch is not scripture but nevertheless the facts contained within are being confirmed by Jude to be true whether it is scripture or not. The Book of Enoch comes from a tradition that Jude is confirming as true.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Jan 27, 2020 22:16:54 GMT
Clovis MerovingianI noticed a lot of contradictions about this book, it is a fact that early Christian authors were familiar with this text, but since the formation of the Canon (3-4 century) , we no longer see this text in Scripture, which is obviously a serious reason from God.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,696
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 27, 2020 22:21:14 GMT
Clovis Merovingian I noticed a lot of contradictions about this book, it is a fact that early Christian authors were familiar with this text, but since the formation of the Canon (3-4 century) , we no longer see this text in Scripture, which is obviously a serious reason from God. Like I said this comes from a tradition that was passed down through the generations. And seeing as Jude quotes from the book and makes multiple references to it, the facts portrayed by that tradition or at least the ones mentioned by Jude are confirmed to be true as he quoted the book and referenced it under the power of the Holy Spirit.
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KGrim
Full Member
Coming back to Arktos...for a little while anyways...just to see how things are doing.
Posts: 442
Likes: 238
Country: USA
Region: South East
Location: East Texas
Ancestry: Scotch-Irish
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Eastern Orthodox
Hero: Jesus
Age: 33 soon to be 34
Philosophy: Hesychasm
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Post by KGrim on Jan 27, 2020 22:40:54 GMT
When I was a kid I saw one of these. All those stories of people being abducted by aliens and putting people into breeding programs to create hybrid species don't make any sense until you put it in context with the Book of Enoch. I will never unsee that thing in my grandmother's trailer and I will probably be the hardest to convince that there is no truth in the Book of Enoch.
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Clovis Merovingian
Prestige/VIP
Elder
Posts: 2,696
Likes: 1,757
Meta-Ethnicity: Anglo-American
Ethnicity: Deep Southerner
Country: My State and my Region are my country
Region: The Deep South
Location: South Carolina
Ancestry: Gaelic (patrilineal), English, Ulster Scots/Scots Irish, Scottish, German, Swiss German, Swedish, Manx, Finnish, Norman French/Quebecois (distantly), Dutch (distantly)
Taxonomy: Borreby/Alpine/ Nordid mix
Y-DNA: R-S660/R-DF109
mtDNA: T1a1
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Christian
Hero: Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James K. Polk
Age: 30
Philosophy: I try to find out what is true as best I can.
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jan 27, 2020 22:47:03 GMT
When I was a kid I saw one of these. All those stories of people being abducted by aliens and putting people into breeding programs to create hybrid species don't make any sense until you put it in context with the Book of Enoch. I will never unsee that thing in my grandmother's trailer and I will probably be the hardest to convince that there is no truth in the Book of Enoch. I sense an interesting story here. Why not make a topic about it?
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