|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 9, 2019 0:18:19 GMT
Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or evil?
Religions tout themselves as being the final word in moral issues, even though secular law has rejected as too barbaric most of those laws. Not that they were original to Christianity as many of the older traditions had variants of the same laws.
To me, a moral god would cure and never kill. That is the position Jesus took towards the non-believers.
Jesus said to love all people including your enemies and if Jesus is Yahweh then he too must love all and save all just as Jesus would.
Jesus would say that God killing instead of curing is evil.
Jesus would say that God curing instead of killing is good.
If god cures instead of killing then there is no hell as a good god or Jesus would have no use for purposeless torture and death.
Thoughts?
Regards DL
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 1:16:55 GMT
So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.
Ok.
Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.
Regards DL
God can do what He wants with His creation, just as you could do what you wanted with yours. Hell is punishment for sins, sins which we are all guilty of. But God, who loves us, gave us a way out of hell by giving Himself in the form of a man as a payment for all sins. God just wants you to acknowledge and believe on Him and what He did for you and for you to follow His moral laws. You have a choice to or not to. So torture is just another punishment to you. Interesting.
As to your view of Jesus.
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.
It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.
Regards DL
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 1:20:33 GMT
You understand nothing because you are always trying to limit god, while saying he has no limits and ignore truths about the scriptures that make you uncomfortable.
I cannot help you get past your brainwashing. The lying clergy must have gotten to you when young and now you are too old to think for yourself. That or too young to be intelligent. I cannot tell which from this POV.
Regards DL
I only explained to you that you're quoting some other God and not the Christian one. And I have not limited God in anything. What did I limit Him on? He's Almighty there's is nothing even 1% too hard for Him to do and to even to in 0.2345 seconds or less.
Your a hole god is less powerful in some things than humans.
We can reproduce true while he can only use bestiality to reproduce a half breed chimera god.
Fools think he is all powerful.
Regards DL
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 1:29:25 GMT
Clovis Merovingian
You know less about Gnostic Christianity than you do about Christianity.
I will answer one of your questions though.
"Who made you the decider of right and wrong"
Your bible and god did.
Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
If you want to discuss anything with me, I suggest you stay away from the personal.
Now, let's see what king of brain and morals you have as far as Jesus goes.
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.
It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.
Regards DL
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 12, 2019 3:46:58 GMT
I only explained to you that you're quoting some other God and not the Christian one. And I have not limited God in anything. What did I limit Him on? He's Almighty there's is nothing even 1% too hard for Him to do and to even to in 0.2345 seconds or less.
Your a hole god is less powerful in some things than humans.
We can reproduce true while he can only use bestiality to reproduce a half breed chimera god.
Fools think he is all powerful.
Regards DL
What is "your a hole god"? God doesn't reproduce silly. God is one and only one. In 3 forms. Like water is 1 in 3 forms. Ice is water, water is water, etc Who is a half breed chimera god? There's no such thing. God is one and He had existed forever and was never created. That alone makes Him more powerful than humans. He doesn't need to be created but we do. We fail at every thing compared to Him.
|
|
|
Post by DKTrav88 on Jul 12, 2019 4:55:49 GMT
God can do what He wants with His creation, just as you could do what you wanted with yours. Hell is punishment for sins, sins which we are all guilty of. But God, who loves us, gave us a way out of hell by giving Himself in the form of a man as a payment for all sins. God just wants you to acknowledge and believe on Him and what He did for you and for you to follow His moral laws. You have a choice to or not to. So torture is just another punishment to you. Interesting.
As to your view of Jesus.
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.
It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.
Regards DL
Hmm, I take it you're talking about Jesus... well, you see, I didn't put Jesus on the cross to die for my sins. Jesus is God, God put Himself on the cross for the sins of all, even yours. It is a selfless loving act, not an immoral one. No, I don't have to ignore those verses. They don't contradict; those verses are talking about people's physical sons and fathers. Jesus is not my physical son or father. It is referencing my father, the one who did the act in conceiving me. Or, if I had a son, it would be referencing him. No, I wouldn't teach my kids to do that and the Bible does not tell us to teach that either. It tells us God bear the sins of all so that we maybe have eternal life in heaven; salvation. Each person is responsible for their own sins like those verses you quoted say, but God gave us a way out through His own self sacrifice. Do you have kids? Hmm, you keep saying 'immoral', so I have a question for you. What is your standard for morality? Where does it come from? What is it founded upon? Who made it? Are you an atheist?
|
|
banks10v24
New Member
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Country: USA
Region: California
Location: San Diego
Ancestry: English, Scottish, German
Politics: Changed hearts make most any structure OK
Religion: Christian (New Wine)
Relationship Status: Celibate
|
Post by banks10v24 on Jul 12, 2019 7:12:48 GMT
Is there such a thing as unnecessary suffering? Atheists say yes, and I agree. So God is either not all-powerful or not all-loving. (Or he could be all-powerful and all-loving and this is reconciled with the existence of unnecessary suffering in some way that we can't understand, so we just have to trust that someday we'll have an adequate explanation. I don't think the original poster would be satisfied by that, so I leave it aside.)
Why wouldn't he be all-powerful? One reason could be because of his love, specifically his empathy. If he's very sensitive, he can be overwhelmed by our sins and suffering.
Why is there any suffering at all? Why not just create us perfect in heaven? So we ourselves come to love him, freely, I guess. So then we have to have a choice, between God and not-God. God knows he is best for us, so perhaps he can't tempt us away from him. ("God does not tempt" says book of James.) So he needs Satan (a not-very-powerful spirit or nation of spirits), who are given the role of tempting. But because they can torment God in the process of tempting us (get us to believe harmful lies), they get leverage over God. They use this to negotiate how reality goes. (God and Satan on at least one occasion make a deal, says book of Job.) God works within the various agreements, and so does Satan. God has ultimate control, but as long as we need to be tempted, he has to keep up a working relationship with Satan.
For whatever reason, God had to work with one nation to be his people at first. Chose Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob (who wasn't better than Esau morally but had more sense), and so on. Their society had to compete with neighboring societies and it had to keep itself pure, and this explains a lot of things we object to nowadays about them (slavery was allowed because it was a competitive thing, patriarchy may have been competitive, certainly was widespread and thus perhaps adaptive, wiping out enemies and having strict moral codes establishes purity). Why keep the spark alive? The tone of the Old Testament overall is deep, mourning, tragic, a document written by people in captivity, survivors looking back on what went wrong in their past. Moses and David have tragic flaws. What the OT reports, it doesn't necessarily condone. It has many calls to justice for the poor, humility, uprightness. Modern-day humanism descends from the Old Testament approach to human beings. So if they fit in to the nations around them, maybe we wouldn't have humanism nowadays.
I think the Methodists say to read the Bible through the lens of Jesus, and I like to read much of the Old Testament (and some of the New) in a mourning voice. The book of Jeremiah says God doesn't take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, and I think that's a good thing to remember when reading about his commands to kill. He may not have had a choice, was doing what was best, and was more heartbroken over it than you or I will ever be.
I am not the best with systematic approaches to Biblical doctrine, hard to fit all the propositions involved in my head, but the best I've found, both from how well it explains what the Bible says (it takes a literal approach) and how balanced the thought system it produces is, is the New Wine System (see newwine.org), which says that when people die, they rest until the resurrection, at which point they are raised to live on Earth for 1,000 years, overcoming their sins, and once they overcome, they can go to be with God. My idea from earlier in this post is that God is a sensitive God, and can't handle an eternity with people who aren't in tune with him. He gives us time to freely come into tune with him. The NWS says some people, probably a small minority, will decide to harden their hearts against God. They no longer listen to God's voice, and so cannot be brought into tune with him. These people have to be disconnected from God. But God is the creator and sustainer, so that's death, annihilation. They suffer a finite amount before they die because God is just.
Justice is valuable because without the concept, there would be no way to have outcry against injustice against oppressed humans. God can be wronged and is oppressed, is vulnerable enough for that. It's also valuable to have justice so that people have something to wake them up. Some people would remain in a state of disharmony with God (with disrespectful hearts) for all eternity, but will repent if they have something to fear. It is better that they be saved and some others have to suffer before they're lost (the ones who don't balk at the thought of punishment and destruction in hell, who couldn't be saved by any means) than that God can never rest.
Whether a person trusts as truth what I've just proposed is a different story. But at least I want to show one way that the Bible, fairly literally taken, is not a story of an evil god.
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 13:51:53 GMT
"the Bible, fairly literally taken, is not a story of an evil god."
Really?
Do you disagree with the verdict reached by the men in this clip?
Regards DL
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 12, 2019 16:50:00 GMT
Is there such a thing as unnecessary suffering? Atheists say yes, and I agree. So God is either not all-powerful or not all-loving. (Or he could be all-powerful and all-loving and this is reconciled with the existence of unnecessary suffering in some way that we can't understand, so we just have to trust that someday we'll have an adequate explanation. I don't think the original poster would be satisfied by that, so I leave it aside.)
Why wouldn't he be all-powerful? One reason could be because of his love, specifically his empathy. If he's very sensitive, he can be overwhelmed by our sins and suffering. Why is there any suffering at all? Why not just create us perfect in heaven? So we ourselves come to love him, freely, I guess. So then we have to have a choice, between God and not-God. God knows he is best for us, so perhaps he can't tempt us away from him. ("God does not tempt" says book of James.) So he needs Satan (a not-very-powerful spirit or nation of spirits), who are given the role of tempting. But because they can torment God in the process of tempting us (get us to believe harmful lies), they get leverage over God. They use this to negotiate how reality goes. (God and Satan on at least one occasion make a deal, says book of Job.) God works within the various agreements, and so does Satan. God has ultimate control, but as long as we need to be tempted, he has to keep up a working relationship with Satan.
For whatever reason, God had to work with one nation to be his people at first. Chose Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob (who wasn't better than Esau morally but had more sense), and so on. Their society had to compete with neighboring societies and it had to keep itself pure, and this explains a lot of things we object to nowadays about them (slavery was allowed because it was a competitive thing, patriarchy may have been competitive, certainly was widespread and thus perhaps adaptive, wiping out enemies and having strict moral codes establishes purity). Why keep the spark alive? The tone of the Old Testament overall is deep, mourning, tragic, a document written by people in captivity, survivors looking back on what went wrong in their past. Moses and David have tragic flaws. What the OT reports, it doesn't necessarily condone. It has many calls to justice for the poor, humility, uprightness. Modern-day humanism descends from the Old Testament approach to human beings. So if they fit in to the nations around them, maybe we wouldn't have humanism nowadays. I think the Methodists say to read the Bible through the lens of Jesus, and I like to read much of the Old Testament (and some of the New) in a mourning voice. The book of Jeremiah says God doesn't take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, and I think that's a good thing to remember when reading about his commands to kill. He may not have had a choice, was doing what was best, and was more heartbroken over it than you or I will ever be. I am not the best with systematic approaches to Biblical doctrine, hard to fit all the propositions involved in my head, but the best I've found, both from how well it explains what the Bible says (it takes a literal approach) and how balanced the thought system it produces is, is the New Wine System (see newwine.org), which says that when people die, they rest until the resurrection, at which point they are raised to live on Earth for 1,000 years, overcoming their sins, and once they overcome, they can go to be with God. My idea from earlier in this post is that God is a sensitive God, and can't handle an eternity with people who aren't in tune with him. He gives us time to freely come into tune with him. The NWS says some people, probably a small minority, will decide to harden their hearts against God. They no longer listen to God's voice, and so cannot be brought into tune with him. These people have to be disconnected from God. But God is the creator and sustainer, so that's death, annihilation. They suffer a finite amount before they die because God is just. Justice is valuable because without the concept, there would be no way to have outcry against injustice against oppressed humans. God can be wronged and is oppressed, is vulnerable enough for that. It's also valuable to have justice so that people have something to wake them up. Some people would remain in a state of disharmony with God (with disrespectful hearts) for all eternity, but will repent if they have something to fear. It is better that they be saved and some others have to suffer before they're lost (the ones who don't balk at the thought of punishment and destruction in hell, who couldn't be saved by any means) than that God can never rest. Whether a person trusts as truth what I've just proposed is a different story. But at least I want to show one way that the Bible, fairly literally taken, is not a story of an evil god.
God calls us to kill? Old Testament had thou shall not kill commandment. And after new covenant was made in New Testament the thou shall not kill still remains. People tried to kill an adulterous woman but Jesus stepped in and didn't allow it. Peter harmed a soldier by cutting his ear off and Jesus was so displeased that He healed the man right away. Jesus stopped us and taught us not to harm or kill
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 12, 2019 17:03:34 GMT
God calls us to kill? Old Testament had thou shall not kill commandment. And after new covenant was made in New Testament the thou shall not kill still remains. People tried to kill an adulterous woman but Jesus stepped in and didn't allow it. Peter harmed a soldier by cutting his ear off and Jesus was so displeased that He healed the man right away. Jesus stopped us and taught us not to harm or kill
Not till he returns. Right? Or do you just conveniently forget about the following. Not likely as that would make you a hypocrite and liar. You are not are you?
Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
Regards DL
|
|
banks10v24
New Member
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Country: USA
Region: California
Location: San Diego
Ancestry: English, Scottish, German
Politics: Changed hearts make most any structure OK
Religion: Christian (New Wine)
Relationship Status: Celibate
|
Post by banks10v24 on Jul 12, 2019 18:20:09 GMT
"the Bible, fairly literally taken, is not a story of an evil god." Really? Do you disagree with the verdict reached by the men in this clip? Regards DL I do disagree.
One thing that puts that in a different perspective is the proposed belief that everyone, except those who harden their hearts against God (which, I should add, the NWS author thinks can only be a knowing and deliberate act), will reach heaven, harmony with God. The Amalekites and Moabites included. God's priority is to prevent the hardening of hearts. In some ages, fear did that best (against hardening due to disrespect). In our age, unfortunately, the image of that has become culturally unpalatable (largely through the secularization of values passed down from Judaism and Christianity themselves). So it works to harden people's hearts in our age. The Bible implies that God may not know the future. (The quote of God repenting over creating man in the clip, or 1 Samuel 15 where he regrets having made Saul king. If he were all-knowing, how could he change his mind over what he did?) So things that seemed like or, from everything God knew were, a good idea at the time, may not seem that way now.
The other thing is the proposed belief that God's heart was broken as he commanded people to kill and sent down plagues. If you believe in God (a personal being who creates and sustains, whether Abrahamic or not), you have to assume, given natural evil (earthquakes and droughts, etc.) that he either 1) is evil, 2) has a plan that we can't understand right now, or 3) does things he doesn't really want to do. I think all three are possibilities, given the Bible, but to me, 3 makes the most sense.
EDIT: 1 is a possibility for me more in the way that "we could all be brains in a vat" is a possibility. 2 is a retreat from interpretation that makes some sense to me. 1 and 3 are interpretations, and 3 makes sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Jul 13, 2019 5:52:28 GMT
God calls us to kill? Old Testament had thou shall not kill commandment. And after new covenant was made in New Testament the thou shall not kill still remains. People tried to kill an adulterous woman but Jesus stepped in and didn't allow it. Peter harmed a soldier by cutting his ear off and Jesus was so displeased that He healed the man right away. Jesus stopped us and taught us not to harm or kill
Not till he returns. Right? Or do you just conveniently forget about the following. Not likely as that would make you a hypocrite and liar. You are not are you?
Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.
Regards DL
What? I seriously always think you're talking about a foreign religion. But the part that I understand from you is that God brought a separation between His people. He wants His kids not to be mixed with Satan's kids. But He brought peace for His own kids though. And you took a verse from a parable. That's just when God will judge the world. Nothing about us judging the world. Are you sure your not into Satanism or some sacrificing cult? That's what I see you mixing in here and it has no place in Christianity. Because no apostle killed and weren't allowed to. Paul converted to being Christian and never killed a soul again but before being a Christian he was a massive murderer. But he knew as a Christian he needed to stop. That's the safest ex murderer I know of. I'd not worry being alone near him.
|
|
|
Post by greatestiam on Jul 13, 2019 15:08:17 GMT
"the Bible, fairly literally taken, is not a story of an evil god." Really? Do you disagree with the verdict reached by the men in this clip? Regards DL I do disagree.
God can kill as well as cure. To cure is good and to kill is evil and you are falling on the side of killing and evil. Good for you. Not. Why do you choose evil over good?
Regards DL
|
|