Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals show

Jul 9, 2019 0:18:19 GMT greatestiam said:

  

 the Judeo-Christian theology has to be placed in the realm of mythology.

Jul 9, 2019 5:44:53 GMT Elizabeth said:

What?
Jesus/God is loving. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell nor do they allow humans to kill which is a commandment. And God does cure. He cured people with leprosy, those who were blind, crippled, etc.

So the question is if that's good or evil? Of course it's good. You'd hope your doctor could do all that. If I ever found an earthly doctor who could do all that God did then I'll never want a different doctor ever again!

So you see a god who will torture the vast majority of us in hell for many years before finally killing us as good.

Ok.

Thanks for showing what you think Jesus has planned for us. The reverse of what he said his policy was of curing instead of killing.

Regards

DL

Jul 9, 2019 6:26:42 GMT Clovis Merovingian said:

People always want to focus on the love of God but forget that a moral God would also be just. He would reward good and punish evil as they deserve. You say that a good God would cure people instead of killing them and my question is what you mean by that? Do you mean that God would do it against the person's will? That he would just point at an unrepentant and enthusiastic rapist and say, "you are cured?" Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise? The former would be spiritual rape just going into a man's mind and reprogramming them into being good violating the man's freedom of choice. God doesn't do that; he allows us to choose between good and evil because if we couldn't choose between the two we'd be mindless automatons.

Regarding the latter, you are talking about rehabilitation. I have a degree in criminal justice and have studied the issue in length. The success of rehabilitation in prisons is very, very low. Seeing as that is the case, what is God to do with those that just will not be convinced to do otherwise? You know, a great many people who do not want to be cured? Is he supposed to just let them get away with their actions with no punishment whatsoever? That is not justice and that is not moral.

Next, you talk about hell and how horrible that is, but you forget that in Christianity escaping hell is actually very easy. Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross thus to wipe the slate clean and enter God's kingdom all one has to do is accept Jesus as one's lord and savior and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins.have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins. There is, of course, a debate in the church of whether faith alone saves or whether works of goodness are also required but it is generally accepted that whatever the case the Holy Spirit will give you power over sin in order to make those good works easy to do.

You have opened many doors my friend and I would be here an hour to answer all areas properly. Let me do a few quick answers.

On free will. Not applicable as their free will is to live and god ignores that and kills them.

No, free will is to choose good which leads to life or evil which leads to death. Actions have consequences, and the consequences to these people's actions is death. Free will does not allow someone to do evil actions and not reap the payment for those actions. God is just.

On justice/fairness. Not applicable as the fairest and most just system is a universalist system with a heaven and no hell.

According to who, you? Who made you the decider of right and wrong and why should anyone listen to you? If someone else says something different than what makes your opinion supersede theirs? And no that is not a fair system. That is a system where everyone goes to heaven regardless of who they are for just existing, a reward of eternal bliss for good and evil alike and no punishment for evil. Justice is punishment for evil and reward for good and that is what heaven and hell is. 

"Or do you mean that such a person should be convinced to do otherwise?"

Convinced is what I mean as god is supposed to be omnipotent and all powerful so no one could resist his super powers of persuasion.

If no one can resist his super powers of persuasion than it is not truly their choice to repent, it is God forcing them to repent. People have to be able to resist God's persuasion if God is truly giving them a choice between good and evil and they ARE given the power to resist. The devil was an angel of God who stood in God's presence and he was given the choice to resist and he did. Also your statement doesn't make sense as persuasion is an act in which someone is trying to convince someone else of something to do or believe according to their own free will. Yet your statement says that no one can resist Gods super power of persuasion. If no one can resist than they don't have a choice in the matter and thus are being forced into doing a certain action. Persuasion is not persuasion if it is forced.

He is a silver tongued little devil that Yahweh.

He has already convinced good people that a genocidal and infanticidal prick like him is a good god.

" Jesus took the punishment for our sins on the cross"

That cannot be as it breaks the laws that Jesus himself taught and that he said he came to fulfill. That idiotic belief makes Yahweh and Jesus infanticidal moral monsters.

Is that not what you see?

Moral people see it that way.

 
Infancidal? Jesus of his own free will sheds his position as God to become a mere mortal, lives a life of suffering all the hardships of a mortal existence, gives himself up to the Romans, is flogged and mocked and crucified and murdered, and dies taking the punishment that was meant for all of mankind and in doing so gives every human being alive a get out of Hell free card, rises again in three days and ascends to heaven to take on his position as God once again and this is immoral to you?

Jesus Christ did all of this of his own choosing because of the love he had for humanity. Jesus is God and he literally lowered himself to our level and died so we wouldn't have to suffer an eternity of torment. Calling this "infanticide" and getting all morally indignant misses the the point of this act entirely. No, I don't think that most "moral" people look at Jesus sacrifice in that manner. But then again I have no idea how you are defining morality. It seems that what is "moral" is just whatever you feel like is moral. 

"have faith in Jesus's sacrifice to save you from your sins."

Impossible as scriptures say that god doles out the grace to believe or have faith to those he will save and deny it to those, the vast majority, who he will deny grace to.

You're talking about predestination which is very controversial in the church and is not believed by many denominations. That being said its not a subject I have studied thoroughly enough to form an opinion on. However the Bible states that anyone who comes to Jesus will not being rejected and... that is not rocket science. If you fail to do that than that is your fault. Christians are also commanded to spread the Gospel through persuasion which indicates to me that predestination isn't all there is to it and that there is an element of choice involved in salvation. 

        
"Holy Spirit will give you power over sin"

God has given Satan dominion over us and the ability to deceive us all.

To think that he will then turn around and negate one angel with another is not intelligent thinking.

No, actually God has given us dominion over the devil. James 4:7 tells us to submit to God and that if you resist the Devil and he will flee from you. However that's kind of hard for those that don't believe in devils and choose not to submit to God. They are the easiest to deceive. 

Then again, neither is belief in some supernatural realm.

, No supernatural realm? Are you just an atheist calling yourself a Gnostic so you can feel unique? Do you know anything at all about Gnosticism? Here's a wikipedia page so you can learn about your own religion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism Gnostics want to escape the physical realm (who they think was created by an evil God called the Demiurge) and enter the spiritual realm (the realm of the "true" God). The spiritual realm is SUPERNATURAL and so are the Aeons (lesser spirits) that Gnostics believe in.