usfan
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pondering the mysteries of the universe..
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Post by usfan on Apr 29, 2019 11:42:59 GMT
The interrelationships between these 3 parts of human motivation are not always delineated. They are often blurred together, so they all seem the same, and the nuances of each element are missed. I propose a deeper look into each element, parsing them as different, for better understanding of ourselves and the peculiarities of the human animal.
First, definitions:
Morality is an embedded sense, classically considered to be 'endowed' by a Creator, as in the American declaration of independence,
*We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights*
Merriam's: conformity to ideals of right human conduct
Morality is a 'self evident' standard that humans in every region, time, and culture have appealed to. It is equivalent to 'natural law', from reformation and Enlightenment philosophers. It is something internal, embedded, and universal in humanity.
Instinct is an animal quality, where certain responses are programmed internally, apart from a learned response. Migration of birds. Self preservation. Maternal care. It differs from morality in that is involuntary, not a rational choice.
From Merriam's: *a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason*
Law is a codefied rule, enforced by a human agenct.
Merriam's: *a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority*
Law can be a moral imperative, or even an instinct. Or, it can be something arbitrary, contrary to a moral sense or instinct. Power to enforce a law is the determining factor. Morals can be observed with or without the force of law. Law can be immoral, or counter instinctive.
The relationships between these human elements are fascinating, and are rooted in a fundamental belief about the universe.
The existence of morality, as a Real Thing, hinges on the embedding ability of a Creator, or some Force able to endow such traits into the inner psyche or soul of man. In a godless universe, morality is not real. It is either animal instinct, a delusion, or arbitrary law by a compelling force.
Here is the logical progression. We will assume both premises, and follow the implications and conclusions, as they relate to morality.
IF... there is a Creator/moral Embedder.. AND IF... this Creator/moral embedder embedded moral standards in humans.. THEN... that is the source of embedded moral standards.. a 'sense' of universal, absolute morality.
BUT..
IF.. there is no Creator/moral Embedder.. THEN... morality is a human construct. ..a 'sense' of universal, absolute morality is a delusion or manipulation of man.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 15:02:57 GMT
I knew not to steal before I was able to read the Bible is that instinct or morality?
I believe there is a creator but not in the sense that you and others know it, perhaps there is more to the Bible than you can see or more to the point can't see?
For instance what do you see when you read the story of Adam and Eve?
Is it a story of moral values or something much more?
The Bible tells us not to kill yet the first story contains killing, it doesn't make sense to me, you can probably find a story in the Bible that contradicts the so called laws or commandments why?
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usfan
New Member
pondering the mysteries of the universe..
Posts: 10
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Country: Usa
Region: Arizona
Location: Sedona
Ancestry: 90% English
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Philosophy: Yes
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Post by usfan on Apr 30, 2019 12:41:27 GMT
I knew not to steal before I was able to read the Bible is that instinct or morality? I believe there is a creator but not in the sense that you and others know it, perhaps there is more to the Bible than you can see or more to the point can't see? For instance what do you see when you read the story of Adam and Eve? Is it a story of moral values or something much more? The Bible tells us not to kill yet the first story contains killing, it doesn't make sense to me, you can probably find a story in the Bible that contradicts the so called laws or commandments why? Thanks for the reply. 1. Stealing. That is an imbedded moral 'sense'. It is universal among humans, that stealing is 'wrong', a moral directive. Instinct is to steal. Good Thieves survive better, in the animal kingdom. The moral directive against stealing is contrary to the instinct, and overrides it (mostly!). 2. The bible is irrelevant, in this comparison, other than an example of human Law, codifying the moral sense into human law. 3. A Creator/God is necessary to 'embed' morality. Otherwise, there is only instinct or human law. 4. Morality is a delusion, in a godless universe. It is a human construct, only, for manipulation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2019 14:06:30 GMT
Who imbedded moral sense?
So your saying if there was no God we would all be be
thieves? Or better thieves at least
Who created the moral directive?
How do you know that the Bible is irrelevant, maybe the laws of the Bible have changed human kind over the thousands of years its been around and is the reason we have moral sense
So if your hypothesis is right we are all on a downward spiral?
It is impossible for morality to be a delusion as we are gaining more morals through creating laws, I agree not all humans have a sense of morality that's why we have prisons ist not?
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usfan
New Member
pondering the mysteries of the universe..
Posts: 10
Likes: 6
Country: Usa
Region: Arizona
Location: Sedona
Ancestry: 90% English
Politics: Conservative
Religion: Biblical Christian
Relationship Status: Married
Age: 65
Philosophy: Yes
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Post by usfan on May 1, 2019 13:04:34 GMT
Who imbedded moral sense? So your saying if there was no God we would all be be thieves? Or better thieves at least Who created the moral directive? How do you know that the Bible is irrelevant, maybe the laws of the Bible have changed human kind over the thousands of years its been around and is the reason we have moral sense So if your hypothesis is right we are all on a downward spiral? It is impossible for morality to be a delusion as we are gaining more morals through creating laws, I agree not all humans have a sense of morality that's why we have prisons ist not? 1. 'Morality', as a Real Thing, can ONLY come from an Embedder. In a godless universe, it is a human construct, for manipulation. It is a delusion, if there is no God. 2. If there is no God, and no morality, but only personal preference, then thievery would be a virtue, as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom. Only human law, or personal ethics, based on a sense of overriding morality castigates theft as 'immoral!'. 3. Morality as a human sense has been around longer than the bible, and is evident where knowledge of the bible was nil. 4. Laws do not create morality. They only mandate human platitudes, which can be either moral or immoral. Hitler made laws condemning Jews. Was that moral? Laws once protected slavery. Law can be immoral, and conflict with the inner sense of morality that is universal to Man. 5. I believe we are on a 'downward spiral'. As a society (in most of western civilization), we have rejected and spurned God, and the moral values He has embedded. We have rushed headlong into immorality, searing our consciences until our moral sensitivities are numbed. We have exchanged respect for the Divine for madness and folly, and are reaping the harvest of our actions. Morality is redefined and twisted into relativity, to destroy the REAL sense of morality that is embedded in us all. Tossed about by the waves of relativity and situation ethics, we flounder in a sea of madness and lies, until we crash on the rocks of Truth. Without an Anchor for our Souls, there is only amoral relativity, driving us to destruction.
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sculptor
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Post by sculptor on Jun 13, 2019 10:01:28 GMT
The interrelationships between these 3 parts of human motivation are not always delineated. They are often blurred together, so they all seem the same, and the nuances of each element are missed. This seems a very odd proposition to begin with. What sort of thing is on your mind, because from where I am standing these three things are not confused. They certainly inform one another, but they are clearly understood and demarcated.
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sculptor
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Posts: 121
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Meta-Ethnicity: Homonid
Ethnicity: Sapiens Sapiens
Country: United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Region: South
Location: Brighton
Ancestry: Homo Sapiens
Taxonomy: Mammalian
mtDNA: From mt EVE
Politics: Left
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Hero: My Grandmother
Age: too old
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Post by sculptor on Jun 13, 2019 10:04:35 GMT
Who imbedded moral sense? So your saying if there was no God we would all be be thieves? Or better thieves at least Who created the moral directive? How do you know that the Bible is irrelevant, maybe the laws of the Bible have changed human kind over the thousands of years its been around and is the reason we have moral sense So if your hypothesis is right we are all on a downward spiral? It is impossible for morality to be a delusion as we are gaining more morals through creating laws, I agree not all humans have a sense of morality that's why we have prisons ist not? Humans have been around in our current form for over 100,000 years minimum, and human society with rules, laws and customs have been the constant companion of human behviour. The Bible, out-of-date as it is, came along rather recently and not universally. Most people on earth do not read it, and few live by it - thankfully.
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sculptor
Full Member
Posts: 121
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Meta-Ethnicity: Homonid
Ethnicity: Sapiens Sapiens
Country: United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Region: South
Location: Brighton
Ancestry: Homo Sapiens
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mtDNA: From mt EVE
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Age: too old
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Post by sculptor on Jun 13, 2019 10:07:04 GMT
Bible - no thanks.
I do not think we should stone adulterers. I do not think we need to keep menstruating women in a tent. I am happy to eat pork and keep meat and milk in the same fridge. I do not think burning witches is a good idea either. Morality does not come from the Bible; did not start with Adam and Eve, and is well overdue for a good burning/revision/scraping.
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