|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 11, 2019 19:26:00 GMT
"As a man increases in moral strength of character, so his conscience becomes more sensitive; he realizes more keenly the distance that separates him from the ideal, and hence the weight of the feeling of guiltiness oppresses him ever more heavily. Growth in goodness does not, therefore, necessarily imply increased happiness, on the contrary, it may mean greater unhappiness.
And his unhappiness increasing in proportion to the elevation of his ethical standards, a man's end is either Buddha or suicide if he knows no God. While if he knows God, it is despair or that conversion which, having sobbed away its tears on the Father's breast, thence derives ever new strength to fight the battle of life, sure of the final victory."
- Heinrich Weinel ("St. Paul, the Man and His Work")
"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy."
- Albert Camus ("The Myth of Sisyphus")
|
|
|
|
Post by jonbain on Mar 12, 2019 20:10:31 GMT
"As a man increases in moral strength of character, so his conscience becomes more sensitive; he realizes more keenly the distance that separates him from the ideal, and hence the weight of the feeling of guiltiness oppresses him ever more heavily. Growth in goodness does not, therefore, necessarily imply increased happiness, on the contrary, it may mean greater unhappiness. And his unhappiness increasing in proportion to the elevation of his ethical standards, a man's end is either Buddha or suicide if he knows no God. While if he knows God, it is despair or that conversion which, having sobbed away its tears on the Father's breast, thence derives ever new strength to fight the battle of life, sure of the final victory." - Heinrich Weinel ("St. Paul, the Man and His Work") "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy." - Albert Camus ("The Myth of Sisyphus") The first paragraph is based on the fears of the unbelievers. The truly faithful know that we are asked only to do our utmost knowing that there will often be times when our actions or in-actions inadvertently appear to cause suffering. This is the essence of morality: that the intent is entirely more vital than the outcome. The second paragraph does reveal that it appears that our sadness grows with our moral positioning. This is not entirely wrong, but the mind that openly can feel infinite sadness thereby also opens the heart to infinite joy. When a fear of sadness cuts the person off from all feeling, then the roots of pathology are planted. There is no laughter where there are no tears. That is why the Buddha is really a type of spiritual suicide. Because the rapture of pure enlightenment is attained by embracing feeling of ever increasing passion and variation of emotional hue. The most noble and powerful warrior is he who can kill with compassion, sadness and love for his foe. His mind is at utter peace in the midst of the strife, whereas the fearful, angry, and vengeful are those that have become like that by rejecting emotions like sadness. They are blinded by their own fury. They are easily defeated; because they have defeated themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by kyloscythe91 on Mar 15, 2019 14:08:19 GMT
The humble realm as the starting foundation as an underlying and highlighting activational way before true dark arts or other sides besides are found is the true way to power...if you do such things...if anyone opposes you...they have lost and if they wage a their while self of a war against you...the one to go my way in which just described has already won and it is already over...life at least for now to me is true lessons of strength...which side a being chooses is up to them...
|
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Mar 23, 2019 4:24:31 GMT
Why would life not be worth living though? It's the same thing as it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 25, 2019 14:13:04 GMT
Why would life not be worth living though? It's the same thing as it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Guilt. |
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Mar 25, 2019 16:39:54 GMT
Why would life not be worth living though? It's the same thing as it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Guilt. Guilt has no power unless it's given power. |
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 25, 2019 19:05:27 GMT
Guilt has no power unless it's given power. Guilt is power...it is gravity... |
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 20:04:46 GMT
"As a man increases in moral strength of character, so his conscience becomes more sensitive; he realizes more keenly the distance that separates him from the ideal, and hence the weight of the feeling of guiltiness oppresses him ever more heavily. Growth in goodness does not, therefore, necessarily imply increased happiness, on the contrary, it may mean greater unhappiness. And his unhappiness increasing in proportion to the elevation of his ethical standards, a man's end is either Buddha or suicide if he knows no God. While if he knows God, it is despair or that conversion which, having sobbed away its tears on the Father's breast, thence derives ever new strength to fight the battle of life, sure of the final victory." - Heinrich Weinel ("St. Paul, the Man and His Work") "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy." - Albert Camus ("The Myth of Sisyphus") The first paragraph is based on the fears of the unbelievers. The truly faithful know that we are asked only to do our utmost knowing that there will often be times when our actions or in-actions inadvertently appear to cause suffering. This is the essence of morality: that the intent is entirely more vital than the outcome. The second paragraph does reveal that it appears that our sadness grows with our moral positioning. This is not entirely wrong, but the mind that openly can feel infinite sadness thereby also opens the heart to infinite joy. When a fear of sadness cuts the person off from all feeling, then the roots of pathology are planted. There is no laughter where there are no tears. That is why the Buddha is really a type of spiritual suicide. Because the rapture of pure enlightenment is attained by embracing feeling of ever increasing passion and variation of emotional hue. The most noble and powerful warrior is he who can kill with compassion, sadness and love for his foe. His mind is at utter peace in the midst of the strife, whereas the fearful, angry, and vengeful are those that have become like that by rejecting emotions like sadness. They are blinded by their own fury. They are easily defeated; because they have defeated themselves. Please elaborate on the following, kindly make the sadness more prominent so I could digest what u are trying to say The most noble and powerful warrior is he who can kill with compassion, sadness and love for his foe. His mind is at utter peace in the midst of the strife, whereas the fearful, angry, and vengeful are those that have become like that by rejecting emotions like sadness. They are blinded by their own fury. They are easily defeated; because they have defeated themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by Elizabeth on Mar 25, 2019 20:36:47 GMT
Guilt has no power unless it's given power. Guilt is power...it is gravity... Guilt isn't gravity. Gravity is a force. Guilt is an emotion. It has an off switch. |
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 26, 2019 14:41:08 GMT
Guilt is power...it is gravity... Guilt isn't gravity. Gravity is a force. Guilt is an emotion. It has an off switch. Guilt is blind force. What do you think drives all of these "causes" based upon the acquisition of power? A projection of a percieved worthlessness on to other's the "mover's" feel a victim hood too. The zietgiest of a collective guilt, rooted in a mass of individuals, acts as the pull which inverts one movement into another.
Take for example feminism. It is about guilt. It is about women feeling worthless due to an abuse or percieved abuse. This collective perspective, one of a mass unactualized potential where the woman feels the inability to be loved or to love properly, takes on a nature of "mass" or a "formlessness" which cause all the percievable external structures (ie the patriarchal type governing systems) to bend and distort and effectively entropy.
Gravity is mass. Mass is an unformed actualized state, ie "potential". "Potential" is an absence of being, an absence of the ability to actualize in the truest and fullest form a person can manifest. Potentiality effectively represents chaos, and as chaotic lacking in value. This absence of value is guilt.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Mar 26, 2019 23:34:04 GMT
Suicide would be the central problem if:
"we weren't mortal" v "love would be the central problem" v "we knew what was out there" v "we'd reached the limits of consciousness"
|
|
|
|
Post by Eugene 2.0 on Mar 26, 2019 23:45:50 GMT
Guilt is power...it is gravity... Guilt isn't gravity. Gravity is a force. Guilt is an emotion. It has an off switch. Oh, it's so nice to hear it from you, Elizabeth! I'm not sure about 100% correct of the sentence, but feeling of guilty is optional. It is not possible to feel guilty being a living creature. One's born is a gift. It is a priceless gift, because we were zero, nothing, and recently we've got something to be able to have something at all. So, life is a pure gift. A. If one's saying that 'he was abuses by his born', then he doesn't accept this pure gift. B. Not accepting it the one chooses to live life under completely schedule, under completely rational (or... well, I don't know... maybe, irrational, or some kinda) rules. C. I think that it's nonsense to someone to wish living his life under rules, and not choosing to live life considering it as a gift. D. Denying gifts is a lack of one of the important rituals in human life. I think that something important in our traditions has been lost. They made us to deny the concept of the family, and it was a cruel step of them. Certainly, we can suppose that this decision was a step to abyss. Family is a pure fun and pure happiness. Loosing a family's concept we've lost our happiness. E. What is happiness then? I consider happiness as an ability of accepting gifts. |
|
vicky
Full Member
Help ever; Hurt never
Posts: 115
Likes: 59
|
Post by vicky on Mar 27, 2019 2:25:53 GMT
"As a man increases in moral strength of character, so his conscience becomes more sensitive; he realizes more keenly the distance that separates him from the ideal, and hence the weight of the feeling of guiltiness oppresses him ever more heavily. Growth in goodness does not, therefore, necessarily imply increased happiness, on the contrary, it may mean greater unhappiness. And his unhappiness increasing in proportion to the elevation of his ethical standards, a man's end is either Buddha or suicide if he knows no God. While if he knows God, it is despair or that conversion which, having sobbed away its tears on the Father's breast, thence derives ever new strength to fight the battle of life, sure of the final victory." - Heinrich Weinel ("St. Paul, the Man and His Work") "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy." - Albert Camus ("The Myth of Sisyphus") You can be as moral as you wish, but if you lack spiritual knowledge and discipline you will always fall pray to the madness of the mind and do something you'll regret. You won't look at it as a lesson whatsoever. The purpose of life is to acquire control over the mind and lead a righteous, moral life. It is only when the mind is conquered will you be able to trudge through the storm of Spirituality to reach the final goal. One cannot master his senses unless he knows what he truly is and work his way up to realize the Truth that he is(the Atma). Once you've trained yourself thus, what wrong can you do when your every action and everything you see and everything that happens to you, becomes divine? You see God everywhere and everything becomes a lesson. Therefor you invite pain, you beg God for hardships, to test your faith, because you've come to realize that therein lies pleasure, that everything happens for a reason, a purpose, all for your own good and to help you grow towards Him. “However difficult life is, try to be its master and not its slave. Every human being has a preordained life span. It is like staying in a leased house. Before you actually vacate the house, you have to find another one to move in. Similarly, before leaving one body, God selects another body and a span, depending upon the karmic debts. In case death is inflicted arbitrarily, you are denying yourself a chance to work out your karma as early as possible and reach a permanent abode. In suicide, you are stranded midway. It would be a frightening state of affairs for you. There is no vacant space in nature. God has filled the space with spirits and many other invisible entities. When suicide is committed, they show up and terrorize you. Hence, do not destroy the life that God has given you. Lead the life you have got righteously. The person who faces the trials in life calmly and always remembers God will one day, definitely, get His grace. Do not doubt its veracity. Face these tests with faith in Him.” - Baba We do not realize that by depriving the soul of the opportunity to work out it’s karma through a body, we are harassing it and ‘killing’ its progress. It is not an escape route because karma has to be worked out - without exception, either in this life or another. The Jagadguru touched upon the issue of suicide and said, “Man has death but the mind has no death. Whatever he does during his lifetime are imprinted on his mind and get carried over to the next birth. None can understand the nature of the mind. Some people think that suicide is the only way of putting an end to all their troubles. They think, ‘It is the mind that is responsible for our suffering. Let us put an end to it.’ It is the worst of sins. The mind cannot be killed like that. One should never entertain such low ideas. One should be prepared to face any difficulties with fortitude and strive hard to sanctify one’s life.” Given this clarity, it is not surprising that the Paramatma(eternal soul) goes to great extents to save the Jivatma(individual soul) from the pain and ignominy of Atma Hatya or suicide. Killing oneself amounts to killing God. This is explained in the following story. Once Arjuna was in a greatly despondent mood. He was disgusted with life and wanted to commit suicide that very night. The All-Knowing Lord Krishna, decided to avert this. He went to Arjuna's residence and told him that he wanted to discuss some urgent matter with him and therefore he wanted to dine with him that day. When Subhadra (Arjuna's wife) and others were engaged otherwise, Krishna called Arjuna to a private chamber. As soon as Arjuna was inside, Krishna bolted the door. He then took firm hold of Arjuna's feet! Arjuna immediately burst out: ‘Swami! What unworthy act have I done? Why are you acting like this?" Krishna said: "With all your titles and achievements, it is utterly unbecoming of you to entertain thoughts of suicide. You are foremost among the Pandavas. You acquired the Gandiva (from Shiva) alter going through severe penances and ordeals. You should be the master of your senses and not their slave. Today you have been overcome by your mind and your senses. This is unworthy of you. Give me a pledge that in no circumstances in the future will you think of suicide. Your life is mine and my life is yours. The divine is the indweller in all beings. Hence I am present in all beings. If you contemplate suicide, you will be guilty of attempting on the life of your dear Krishna." Arjuna said, "Swami ! I was ignorant of the subtle truths you have revealed. Please forgive me. Henceforth, in all my life I will not think of any such act." In this manner, Krishna, in His love for the Pandavas, was prepared to go to any length and do even menial act to protect them. We must be fearless in our spiritual endeavors. We shouldn't allow the mind to get in our way. "Ideas of suicide, let me tell you, are born out of the most despicable form of cowardice. Do not allow them to affect you; be bold, so bold that you are determined to brave out any calamity that may assail you. Why fear? When you have God installed in your heart, who can lead you to destruction?" - Baba You cannot follow God unless you first know yourself, who you are. Otherwise if you become moral without the knowledge that God is within, you may one day face many hardships and become despondent thus. You will then blame God, seeing as how you lack the insight that you yourself are a part of Him. You will fail to see the lesson at foot. Instead of correcting yourself and learning, you will look to push the blame on someone/something else. |
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 27, 2019 15:46:54 GMT
"As a man increases in moral strength of character, so his conscience becomes more sensitive; he realizes more keenly the distance that separates him from the ideal, and hence the weight of the feeling of guiltiness oppresses him ever more heavily. Growth in goodness does not, therefore, necessarily imply increased happiness, on the contrary, it may mean greater unhappiness. And his unhappiness increasing in proportion to the elevation of his ethical standards, a man's end is either Buddha or suicide if he knows no God. While if he knows God, it is despair or that conversion which, having sobbed away its tears on the Father's breast, thence derives ever new strength to fight the battle of life, sure of the final victory." - Heinrich Weinel ("St. Paul, the Man and His Work") "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy." - Albert Camus ("The Myth of Sisyphus") You can be as moral as you wish, but if you lack spiritual knowledge and discipline you will always fall pray to the madness of the mind and do something you'll regret. You won't look at it as a lesson whatsoever. The purpose of life is to acquire control over the mind and lead a righteous, moral life. It is only when the mind is conquered will you be able to trudge through the storm of Spirituality to reach the final goal. One cannot master his senses unless he knows what he truly is and work his way up to realize the Truth that he is(the Atma). Once you've trained yourself thus, what wrong can you do when your every action and everything you see and everything that happens to you, becomes divine? You see God everywhere and everything becomes a lesson. Therefor you invite pain, you beg God for hardships, to test your faith, because you've come to realize that therein lies pleasure, that everything happens for a reason, a purpose, all for your own good and to help you grow towards Him. “However difficult life is, try to be its master and not its slave. Every human being has a preordained life span. It is like staying in a leased house. Before you actually vacate the house, you have to find another one to move in. Similarly, before leaving one body, God selects another body and a span, depending upon the karmic debts. In case death is inflicted arbitrarily, you are denying yourself a chance to work out your karma as early as possible and reach a permanent abode. In suicide, you are stranded midway. It would be a frightening state of affairs for you. There is no vacant space in nature. God has filled the space with spirits and many other invisible entities. When suicide is committed, they show up and terrorize you. Hence, do not destroy the life that God has given you. Lead the life you have got righteously. The person who faces the trials in life calmly and always remembers God will one day, definitely, get His grace. Do not doubt its veracity. Face these tests with faith in Him.” - Baba We do not realize that by depriving the soul of the opportunity to work out it’s karma through a body, we are harassing it and ‘killing’ its progress. It is not an escape route because karma has to be worked out - without exception, either in this life or another. The Jagadguru touched upon the issue of suicide and said, “Man has death but the mind has no death. Whatever he does during his lifetime are imprinted on his mind and get carried over to the next birth. None can understand the nature of the mind. Some people think that suicide is the only way of putting an end to all their troubles. They think, ‘It is the mind that is responsible for our suffering. Let us put an end to it.’ It is the worst of sins. The mind cannot be killed like that. One should never entertain such low ideas. One should be prepared to face any difficulties with fortitude and strive hard to sanctify one’s life.” Given this clarity, it is not surprising that the Paramatma(eternal soul) goes to great extents to save the Jivatma(individual soul) from the pain and ignominy of Atma Hatya or suicide. Killing oneself amounts to killing God. This is explained in the following story. Once Arjuna was in a greatly despondent mood. He was disgusted with life and wanted to commit suicide that very night. The All-Knowing Lord Krishna, decided to avert this. He went to Arjuna's residence and told him that he wanted to discuss some urgent matter with him and therefore he wanted to dine with him that day. When Subhadra (Arjuna's wife) and others were engaged otherwise, Krishna called Arjuna to a private chamber. As soon as Arjuna was inside, Krishna bolted the door. He then took firm hold of Arjuna's feet! Arjuna immediately burst out: ‘Swami! What unworthy act have I done? Why are you acting like this?" Krishna said: "With all your titles and achievements, it is utterly unbecoming of you to entertain thoughts of suicide. You are foremost among the Pandavas. You acquired the Gandiva (from Shiva) alter going through severe penances and ordeals. You should be the master of your senses and not their slave. Today you have been overcome by your mind and your senses. This is unworthy of you. Give me a pledge that in no circumstances in the future will you think of suicide. Your life is mine and my life is yours. The divine is the indweller in all beings. Hence I am present in all beings. If you contemplate suicide, you will be guilty of attempting on the life of your dear Krishna." Arjuna said, "Swami ! I was ignorant of the subtle truths you have revealed. Please forgive me. Henceforth, in all my life I will not think of any such act." In this manner, Krishna, in His love for the Pandavas, was prepared to go to any length and do even menial act to protect them. We must be fearless in our spiritual endeavors. We shouldn't allow the mind to get in our way. "Ideas of suicide, let me tell you, are born out of the most despicable form of cowardice. Do not allow them to affect you; be bold, so bold that you are determined to brave out any calamity that may assail you. Why fear? When you have God installed in your heart, who can lead you to destruction?" - Baba You cannot follow God unless you first know yourself, who you are. Otherwise if you become moral without the knowledge that God is within, you may one day face many hardships and become despondent thus. You will then blame God, seeing as how you lack the insight that you yourself are a part of Him. You will fail to see the lesson at foot. Instead of correcting yourself and learning, you will look to push the blame on someone/something else. You claim intellect is bad...then give an intellectual response against it. The simple truth is that intuition alone, or matters of the heart and its ability to be decieved, requires a balance with the intellect. Should one use intellect alone? No. Evidence of this is in one of your quotes:
"They think, ‘It is the mind that is responsible for our suffering. Let us put an end to it.’ It is the worst of sins. The mind cannot be killed like that. One should never entertain such low ideas."
However the same is required for intuition. One cannot be limited to intuition alone, the heart is fickle and much of the verse you quote argue Arjuna's failing heart. As to the references it was both "mind AND SENSES" which caused arujna to fall into despair. Part of this nature of "sense" lies in intuition as well.
The thread is not blaming anyone or anything, but rather observing the dichotomy that arises with an increase in virtue (ie "honesty", "watching for the interest of other's", absence of murder/stealing/adultery/etc.) comes in increasing observation that virtue barely exists even in the smallest of endeavors.
The same applies for "love". With an increase in understanding how to give compassion comes an increase in realizing how little compassion exists outside.
The question of suicide and virtue is thus grounded in observation. What does one do when they wake up one day and seeing just dark empty space? This is not to be take literally of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by xxxxxxxxx on Mar 27, 2019 15:56:36 GMT
Suicide would be the central problem if: "we weren't mortal" v "love would be the central problem" v "we knew what was out there" v "we'd reached the limits of consciousness" The moral question, at least one I am currently observing about "suicide" stems from the nature of "death". The question is "how to die appropriately?" I say this in not just a literal but abstract manner. Take for example an action one commits. That action, in the due course of time, is effectively eliminate and replaced by another action. This action, a self-evident truth in and of itself as it is grounded primarily in the nature of "observation", "dies" and leads to another "action". One axiom dies and results in further axioms.
The moral question of suicide is grounded fundamentally in the best course of action. How is one to directed there own death so to speak, considering the universe (as well as the individual) is in a constant state of entropy (death) and negentropy (order/life).
|
|
