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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 8, 2019 4:52:21 GMT
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 15:02:32 GMT
We were talking of the impossibility of proving a negative.
You are saying I cannot prove a positive claim of living in reality, --- which I can prove.
I don't know if you purposely deflected or if you just did not understand what I put.
It is easy for me to prove I live in reality. This site is in reality and here I am using it.
As to who or what is a person who claims that there is a God; unless he has first hand information and contact, he is a liar as he is just passing on 7th hand hear say.
Facts are real. Not hear say.
Regards DL
Saying you live in reality does not prove you live in reality. That's like me saying the sky is purple is proof that the sky is purple. But we are not going off topic. How can you prove you are not the schizophrenic and that those who believe in God are? I cannot and did not call believers schizophrenic. I said that that teacher did.
I prefer the word delusional because I think that faith without facts is for fools.
It is that thinking that forced my apotheosis and I will not likely change my view as it paid off better than the vast majority of delusional thinking has.
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 15:12:17 GMT
Interesting, and I partially agree, based on what Jesus says in scriptures about love, which negates God loving us. God wants servants. Those who love another do not want them as servants. Right?
Let's define love a bit, from Jesus' POV.
Love, which always takes two to be a true love, must have works and deeds and reciprocity.
Think of those you love and who return your love. That is true love thanks to the works and deeds you do for each other. Right?
Now think of what God does for us. Nothing. Right?
That and the fact he wants us as servants shows more hate than love. Do you agree?
Regards DL I think you missed everything God meant in the bible. Are kids servants of their parents? Parents teach their kids to clean their rooms, to bathe and brush their teeth, to go to school and learn, etc. Is this love wanting them as servants? No. This love is to teach them how to have a good future which will benefit them not the parent or God. It's not about servants. It's about giving them hope and a future which God and parents want for us unless they don't love you. Jeremiah 29:11 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. A parent or God who doesn't do this verse is not loving. Good part is that not all parents are loving in this world but God remains loving. Ok! Here's the summary of it. Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Crazy right? We should love our enemies even. Jesus wants us to love everyone and being charitable without expecting to be rewarded for it in any way. Just like He is nice to even those who never say thank you and act evil. Otherswise people would probably kill their enemies or such mean people but God and Christians must love them anyway no matter what. Too amazing. I mean I wish I was an only child but I must love my siblings nonetheless. It's the right thing to do as God said. This is false. It doesn't take two to be true love and both don't need work and deeds. The verse I just quoted above about loving your enemies clearly states this. It's a one sided love at times. You're loving that person and that person is hating you. And only one will have deeds/works and will lend and and do good without expecting the other one to stop hating them or thanking them or rewarding them. That's too amazing. Normally, people would hate that person back or something. But God says love them anyway and not treat them as an enemy. Just like an ungrateful child with a parent for example. A real parent would love them anyway and take care of them. A bad parent will hate them, abandon them, or even kill them. Is this what you're trying to spread here? I hope not. That's crazy. I'm glad Jesus is a smart and a good God or everything will be disorganized. Nope, wrong. Again the verse I quoted to you above says it doesn't matter if your love is returned to you. You love them anyway and that's true love. Not what you stated. Or here's expanding on it from Jesus Himself. He doesn't want you just loving those who love you. He actually wants you to focus on loving those who don't love you back. Luke 6:32-36 32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, [h]hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. If God did nothing then no one would even be a cell that will grow into even more. I think He needs to eliminate ungrateful and hateful and murderous cells/people but He's too loving and would rather give them time to change. He's kind to the ungateful and evil as that verse said. He's doing too much good to people actually. But a great example. No, of course I don't agree. I already explained how God and loving parents don't make their kids servants but make them have good futures because they love them. You seem to have a lot of hate for some reason and blaming it on anyone you can by blaming the innocent in your posts it seems. :( When God died for someone on a cross...it shows more love than some people would even do for someone. Unless you met a ton of people willing to die for someone? John 15:13,14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Here I am trying to talk using logic and reason and here you are quoting garbage.
Love your enemy. Let's see if you can.
Can you love the rapist who is attacking you?
If I need say more, you are insane.
Jesus' main law is the Golden Rule. Reciprocity is always fair play and says that you return good for good and evil for evil.
You are trying to reverse reciprocity and return good for evil. You would reward evil.
You would kiss your rapist good buy while I would punish him for you.
Which one of us would be doing the right thing?
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 15:22:16 GMT
I see an enlightened thinker.
You are basically saying that man is serving himself and not some God.
I agree.
God is to serve man and not man serve God. That is what Jesus taught but most do not see it.
Regards DL
My regards to ya too!! Yeah, the idea of God who serves man is really powerful. I think none believers can't avoid a thought that there's no reason for God to create the universe, but for serving men. People used to think that if God created the universe, he might wanted to make people serve himself, but for why did he create the world then? He was needed to do it. A man was demanded for God, God couldn't live without a human. God needed Himself, and that's why he created people - to watch their history and finally find the one as great as Him. He wanted to see if there would be founded a man who were as so majestic as Jesus? Probably, Jesus was a passkey to us to understand what's going on here, and to know how to get an access to Heaven. Since we've got it we need to behave ourselves like Jesus to be pleased with VIP cards to Heaven. More insight.
Let me encapsulate what you put with one of my favorite Star Trek scenes. It resonates with me because when I first started posting tough questions to theists, I was met with the same type of violence, except of the verbal kind. Who are you to question God was a common comment towards me. It still is.
Regards DL
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Feb 18, 2019 15:55:49 GMT
My regards to ya too!! Yeah, the idea of God who serves man is really powerful. I think none believers can't avoid a thought that there's no reason for God to create the universe, but for serving men. People used to think that if God created the universe, he might wanted to make people serve himself, but for why did he create the world then? He was needed to do it. A man was demanded for God, God couldn't live without a human. God needed Himself, and that's why he created people - to watch their history and finally find the one as great as Him. He wanted to see if there would be founded a man who were as so majestic as Jesus? Probably, Jesus was a passkey to us to understand what's going on here, and to know how to get an access to Heaven. Since we've got it we need to behave ourselves like Jesus to be pleased with VIP cards to Heaven. More insight.
Let me encapsulate what you put with one of my favorite Star Trek scenes. It resonates with me because when I first started posting tough questions to theists, I was met with the same type of violence, except of the verbal kind. Who are you to question God was a common comment towards me. It still is.
Regards DL
It's my greater disadvantage I have never seen Star Trek yet. I was a believer, then I stopped being him, because of love - I wanted to be with her, and she was an atheist who hated theists; and after a while, spending lots of time here with this the most awesome place in net I've ever been, I got the idea that it would be harmful for someone in this forum to be there with an atheist. ...I mean, if I kept staying an atheist here, some of the believers here would rather started to be upset. So, trying not to upset them no more, I decided to out. ...And this made me to stop being atheistic person, and transform again in a believer... Well, I don't know what to say. Sometimes it's important not to harm someone, not to tear their senses apart, or not to make them feeling uncomfortable. So, that's why I've chose a middle path, the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children...
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2019 18:58:59 GMT
I think you missed everything God meant in the bible. Are kids servants of their parents? Parents teach their kids to clean their rooms, to bathe and brush their teeth, to go to school and learn, etc. Is this love wanting them as servants? No. This love is to teach them how to have a good future which will benefit them not the parent or God. It's not about servants. It's about giving them hope and a future which God and parents want for us unless they don't love you. Jeremiah 29:11 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. A parent or God who doesn't do this verse is not loving. Good part is that not all parents are loving in this world but God remains loving. Ok! Here's the summary of it. Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Crazy right? We should love our enemies even. Jesus wants us to love everyone and being charitable without expecting to be rewarded for it in any way. Just like He is nice to even those who never say thank you and act evil. Otherswise people would probably kill their enemies or such mean people but God and Christians must love them anyway no matter what. Too amazing. I mean I wish I was an only child but I must love my siblings nonetheless. It's the right thing to do as God said. This is false. It doesn't take two to be true love and both don't need work and deeds. The verse I just quoted above about loving your enemies clearly states this. It's a one sided love at times. You're loving that person and that person is hating you. And only one will have deeds/works and will lend and and do good without expecting the other one to stop hating them or thanking them or rewarding them. That's too amazing. Normally, people would hate that person back or something. But God says love them anyway and not treat them as an enemy. Just like an ungrateful child with a parent for example. A real parent would love them anyway and take care of them. A bad parent will hate them, abandon them, or even kill them. Is this what you're trying to spread here? I hope not. That's crazy. I'm glad Jesus is a smart and a good God or everything will be disorganized. Nope, wrong. Again the verse I quoted to you above says it doesn't matter if your love is returned to you. You love them anyway and that's true love. Not what you stated. Or here's expanding on it from Jesus Himself. He doesn't want you just loving those who love you. He actually wants you to focus on loving those who don't love you back. Luke 6:32-36 32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, [h]hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. If God did nothing then no one would even be a cell that will grow into even more. I think He needs to eliminate ungrateful and hateful and murderous cells/people but He's too loving and would rather give them time to change. He's kind to the ungateful and evil as that verse said. He's doing too much good to people actually. But a great example. No, of course I don't agree. I already explained how God and loving parents don't make their kids servants but make them have good futures because they love them. You seem to have a lot of hate for some reason and blaming it on anyone you can by blaming the innocent in your posts it seems. :( When God died for someone on a cross...it shows more love than some people would even do for someone. Unless you met a ton of people willing to die for someone? John 15:13,14 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Here I am trying to talk using logic and reason and here you are quoting garbage.
Love your enemy. Let's see if you can.
Can you love the rapist who is attacking you?
If I need say more, you are insane.
Jesus' main law is the Golden Rule. Reciprocity is always fair play and says that you return good for good and evil for evil.
You are trying to reverse reciprocity and return good for evil. You would reward evil.
You would kiss your rapist good buy while I would punish him for you.
Which one of us would be doing the right thing?
Regards DL
That's actually a good question because it does apply to me. I was almost raped at age 12 or 13. And yeah, I do love that person. I forgave them and even see them today and not wish them harm or anything. They know they were wrong it seems. And this is the right way to solve it. Or you never made a mistake in your life? Because everyone needs forgiveness. I even know of a Christian family who lost their son because some drunk guy drove into his car and killed him. The family forgave him and didn't want him charged. They worked on helping him stay sober and now he's like part of their family. If they didn't forgive him then he could be dead now with another drunk accident or killed someone else while drunk. The forgiveness by that family taught him how to really live and have a second chance. You don't believe in second chances or in not dying too soon?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Feb 18, 2019 19:18:37 GMT
Here I am trying to talk using logic and reason and here you are quoting garbage.
Love your enemy. Let's see if you can.
Can you love the rapist who is attacking you?
If I need say more, you are insane.
Jesus' main law is the Golden Rule. Reciprocity is always fair play and says that you return good for good and evil for evil.
You are trying to reverse reciprocity and return good for evil. You would reward evil.
You would kiss your rapist good buy while I would punish him for you.
Which one of us would be doing the right thing?
Regards DL
That's actually a good question because it does apply to me. I was almost raped at age 12 or 13. And yeah, I do love that person. I forgave them and even see them today and not wish them harm or anything. They know they were wrong it seems. And this is the right way to solve it. Or you never made a mistake in your life? Because everyone needs forgiveness. I even know of a Christian family who lost their son because some drunk guy drove into his car and killed him. The family forgave him and didn't want him charged. They worked on helping him stay sober and now he's like part of their family. If they didn't forgive him then he could be deas now with another drunk accident or killed someone else while drunk. The forgiveness by that family thought him how to really live and have a second chance. You don't believe in second chances or in not dying too soon? What he said reminds me of Acts 17:18 But it seems he does not understand that faith isn't the result of logical reasoning, or maybe he knows that and just wishes to make those who have faith look like fools, but we have 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 to tell us this is what happens to believers.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2019 19:39:26 GMT
That's actually a good question because it does apply to me. I was almost raped at age 12 or 13. And yeah, I do love that person. I forgave them and even see them today and not wish them harm or anything. They know they were wrong it seems. And this is the right way to solve it. Or you never made a mistake in your life? Because everyone needs forgiveness. I even know of a Christian family who lost their son because some drunk guy drove into his car and killed him. The family forgave him and didn't want him charged. They worked on helping him stay sober and now he's like part of their family. If they didn't forgive him then he could be deas now with another drunk accident or killed someone else while drunk. The forgiveness by that family thought him how to really live and have a second chance. You don't believe in second chances or in not dying too soon? What he said reminds me of Acts 17:18 But it seems he does not understand that faith isn't the result of logical reasoning, or maybe he knows that and just wishes to make those who have faith look like fools, but we have 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 to tell us this is what happens to believers. He also seems like he's a type of person who'd have a son who did something wrong that he'd abandon him and not help him. Helping is not awarding for the wrong it's making the person see their wrong and helping them change so it doesn't happen again. Awarding would be giving them a high five or throwing a party for them or giving them gifts or something which encourages their wrong behavior only. But people are all fallen from being perfect and need help learning how to return to it not being kept from being who they're meant to be. Not sure how people don't understand this or not care about it but just want to continue in violence/evil which doesn't make things better
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 19:44:13 GMT
I was a believer, then I stopped being him, because of love - I wanted to be with her, and she was an atheist who hated theists; and after a while, spending lots of time here with this the most awesome place in net I've ever been, I got the idea that it would be harmful for someone in this forum to be there with an atheist. ...I mean, if I kept staying an atheist here, some of the believers here would rather started to be upset. So, trying not to upset them no more, I decided to out. ...And this made me to stop being atheistic person, and transform again in a believer... Well, I don't know what to say. You will see me use offensive language when talking about God. I try to take it a bit easier when talking to Christians about themselves.
I hear you as saying you were not being the best and loving Christian you could be because you were trying to correct poor thinking. Keep these two quotes in mind when you are thinking in that foolish way. No insult meant with using that word.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Jordan Peterson In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.
Do not take offence from those you try to correct when they do not get it. They are the brainwashed ones and not you.
Remember as well that Gnostic Christians, as well as Jesus, the thinking Christians as compared to the sheeple, were all persecuted by the church. Do not expect them to thank you for doing the right thing.
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 19:53:32 GMT
That's actually a good question because it does apply to me. I was almost raped at age 12 or 13. And yeah, I do love that person. I forgave them and even see them today and not wish them harm or anything. They know they were wrong it seems. And this is the right way to solve it. Or you never made a mistake in your life? Because everyone needs forgiveness. I even know of a Christian family who lost their son because some drunk guy drove into his car and killed him. The family forgave him and didn't want him charged. They worked on helping him stay sober and now he's like part of their family. If they didn't forgive him then he could be dead now with another drunk accident or killed someone else while drunk. The forgiveness by that family taught him how to really live and have a second chance. You don't believe in second chances or in not dying too soon? You change the goal post from love your enemy to forgive your enemy.
Forgiveness is good for us as it gives us closure.
You forgave the offence and moved on, as you should.
That is not the same as loving the one who almost raped you.
Repentance and forgiveness can be just one person.
Love, to be true love, like faith, takes works and deeds.
A one way love, without reciprocity, is closer to stalking.
How do you know or how can you tell that those who say they love you actually do?
By what they do to express that love. Right?
How long would they continue to love you if you did not return the affection with works and deeds?
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 20:01:23 GMT
What he said reminds me of Acts 17:18 But it seems he does not understand that faith isn't the result of logical reasoning, or maybe he knows that and just wishes to make those who have faith look like fools, but we have 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 to tell us this is what happens to believers. I am well aware of what faith is thought of by Christianity. Both new and old.
Here is the new and the old follows as a part of something I wrote of Martin Luther.
imgur.com/IBroXK9
Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.
Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.
The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]
How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?
Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did. “Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.” “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes their mind as it is pure idol worship.
Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.
Regards DL
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2019 20:04:42 GMT
That's actually a good question because it does apply to me. I was almost raped at age 12 or 13. And yeah, I do love that person. I forgave them and even see them today and not wish them harm or anything. They know they were wrong it seems. And this is the right way to solve it. Or you never made a mistake in your life? Because everyone needs forgiveness. I even know of a Christian family who lost their son because some drunk guy drove into his car and killed him. The family forgave him and didn't want him charged. They worked on helping him stay sober and now he's like part of their family. If they didn't forgive him then he could be dead now with another drunk accident or killed someone else while drunk. The forgiveness by that family taught him how to really live and have a second chance. You don't believe in second chances or in not dying too soon? You change the goal post from love your enemy to forgive your enemy.
Forgiveness is good for us as it gives us closure.
You forgave the offence and moved on, as you should.
That is not the same as loving the one who almost raped you.
Repentance and forgiveness can be just one person.
Love, to be true love, like faith, takes works and deeds.
A one way love, without reciprocity, is closer to stalking.
How do you know or how can you tell that those who say they love you actually do?
By what they do to express that love. Right?
How long would they continue to love you if you did not return the affection with works and deeds?
Regards DL Loving someone will start with forgiving their wrong. So yes I do love and forgive him. Only wish the best for him. Forgiveness was the first deed/work of love. Otherwise I'd hate. But actually didn't have hate at all just confusion to be honest. But then from confusion went to forgiveness and trying to help them know it's wrong so they don't do that to others because someone could kill them for that. Was there to make sure he continued in the right path to have a good future.
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2019 20:07:22 GMT
greatestiam actually DKTrav88 and I do not agree with or support Martin Luther at all. So we probably won't argue with you about his beliefs. He had it all messed up.
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 20:08:34 GMT
What he said reminds me of Acts 17:18 But it seems he does not understand that faith isn't the result of logical reasoning, or maybe he knows that and just wishes to make those who have faith look like fools, but we have 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 to tell us this is what happens to believers. He also seems like he's a type of person who'd have a son who did something wrong that he'd abandon him and not help him. Helping is not awarding for the wrong it's making the person see their wrong and helping them change so it doesn't happen again. Awarding would be giving them a high five or throwing a party for them or giving them gifts or something which encourages their wrong behavior only. But people are all fallen from being perfect and need help learning how to return to it not being kept from being who they're meant to be. Not sure how people don't understand this or not care about it but just want to continue in violence/evil which doesn't make things better Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
I have 4 boys and love them all.
With my delinquent attitude and -----
it took me a long time to learn how to love and express love.
You two should learn how as well as all you are expressing is the hate in your hearts. So much for loving your new neighbor. Christians.
Regards DL
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Post by greatestiam on Feb 18, 2019 20:10:25 GMT
greatestiam actually DKTrav88 and I do not agree with or support Martin Luther at all. So we probably won't argue with you about his beliefs. He had it all messed up. Faith without facts is still for fools who do not want to face the truth.
Regards DL
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 18, 2019 20:42:43 GMT
He also seems like he's a type of person who'd have a son who did something wrong that he'd abandon him and not help him. Helping is not awarding for the wrong it's making the person see their wrong and helping them change so it doesn't happen again. Awarding would be giving them a high five or throwing a party for them or giving them gifts or something which encourages their wrong behavior only. But people are all fallen from being perfect and need help learning how to return to it not being kept from being who they're meant to be. Not sure how people don't understand this or not care about it but just want to continue in violence/evil which doesn't make things better Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
I have 4 boys and love them all.
With my delinquent attitude and -----
it took me a long time to learn how to love and express love.
You two should learn how as well as all you are expressing is the hate in your hearts. So much for loving your new neighbor. Christians.
Regards DL
So let's say that guy was one of your sons instead. You'd still help me nail him?
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