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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Nov 23, 2018 12:42:04 GMT
(This is a modification of J. Shellenberg's argument from non-believeing)
1. If God exists, He must either reveal Himself, or to make us to reveal Him. 2. Knowledge of God's being might be an evidence. 3. If knowledge of God's being is evident we might reveal his existence without making any conclusions. 4. God's being isn't evident (the claim of many people; or a weak claim of a certain man). 5. To make a simple conclusion we have to use a simple (a plain) deities. 6. Any simple (plain) deity is evident. 7. God's existence isn't evident, and not given from conclusions as well. 8. God doesn't reveal Himself, not through evidences. 9. God doesn't exist. 10. There's no God.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 24, 2018 19:48:07 GMT
Do you believe aliens exist? no Okay. What do you believe about the origins of life?
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Post by Eugene 2.0 on Nov 25, 2018 15:55:06 GMT
It's possible. Please, don't misinterpreted me, this modified objections are from J. Shellenberg. I just wanted to ask about logical incorrectness here. And, about the other methods of knowledge about Him too. The name of thread was about to raise discussion, nothing more. Usually, the critics say that the presence of God was being felt by not Apostles from mystique feelings. We have the Bible today, but that days the situation wasn't similar to nowadays. The last form of the Bible have been accomplishing for years. They also said that Bible was written through the Holy Spirit. Well sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. God is always logical and we mere humans cannot grasp the intelligence of God, therefore God is always logical and cannot be deemed otherwise. Checkmate. It's quite sane position about 'God uses more superior logic than people'. But this statement destroys all hopes to solve anything about God; moreover it allows for us to think that God is God as Satan, and God is slave while being master, etc. Surely, some of religious people might claim that God is good despite his actions (I mean disasters, nonsense killing of people, etc), because he's wise and he knows what is the best for us. Well, this position is a solid protection of ...a god, not a God. Most likely, holding a view on 'something big' instead of a certain God is just changing the thesis of the topic. You need to use a term 'The Ultimate Power' instead of using God, because a Christian God, for example, has his own permissions to people. He said through Bible (as you said it above) that he has brought the new testament, that there will be Apocalypsis, etc. He also said to love and the other things. That's why his promises have to be counted as his I.D., and in vice versa he's a cheater.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 26, 2018 4:33:48 GMT
Well sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. God is always logical and we mere humans cannot grasp the intelligence of God, therefore God is always logical and cannot be deemed otherwise. Checkmate. It's quite sane position about 'God uses more superior logic than people'. But this statement destroys all hopes to solve anything about God; moreover it allows for us to think that God is God as Satan, and God is slave while being master, etc. Surely, some of religious people might claim that God is good despite his actions (I mean disasters, nonsense killing of people, etc), because he's wise and he knows what is the best for us. Well, this position is a solid protection of ...a god, not a God. Most likely, holding a view on 'something big' instead of a certain God is just changing the thesis of the topic. You need to use a term 'The Ultimate Power' instead of using God, because a Christian God, for example, has his own permissions to people. He said through Bible (as you said it above) that he has brought the new testament, that there will be Apocalypsis, etc. He also said to love and the other things. That's why his promises have to be counted as his I.D., and in vice versa he's a cheater. Slave and master at the same time? Can you provide an example? Personally, I think of this story. The teacher is like the master over the student because teacher tells what the student must do and the student like a slave will do it. But the teacher isn't the student too because he doesn't plan to do that same work that he assigned the student to give himself a grade because he doesn't need that class for anything. He is a teacher of the class so doesn't need the class himself. The student/slave can't be a teacher because he doesn't know how to be a master/teacher because isn't taught in that area. Like I can't go teach about brain surgery since I don't know anything about it but I can learn it as a student.
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Post by AmericanCharm on Nov 26, 2018 5:27:02 GMT
I think God is the human metaphor to describe the ultimate power that governs the entire universe. Just like science explains a nucleus governs the electron orbiting it or the sun governing the planets orbiting, God is what everything is relative to. The very tip of the pyramid. Everything is relative to the metaphor God. Including morals. God is the anchor, the ultimate largest power of everything. Like a black hole governing the galaxy.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 26, 2018 14:55:46 GMT
So nothing is certain in life but the nonexistence of God? Maybe this is more philosophical hmm
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Post by prophettom on Nov 27, 2018 19:28:37 GMT
Hi everyone I am a new member. By my name I guess you know where I stand. Just so you know it is not a choice i made to be a Prophet or as God said Chosen it was his. I have accepted of course. But I am not going to get into this a lot. God is real! I have seen my coffee magically reheated in my cup as i held it in my hand. I have heard him speak. Devils are real too I know they have the ability to use what we call magic and often times convince man that they are God. So he is real even if you can not just take me at my word that fact wont change.
That said I totally get this point of view and why so many think he is not real. Unlike Religious freaks want to teach you. You are not in any trouble for not taking his existence in blind faith. He actually considers that a good choice! When he is ready for you to know him you will. Oh word to the wise for you Atheist. Do not fall to those religions. They are NOT OF GOD but a reflection of truth woven to lead down the path to evil. They follow hell and death best. Just be good it matters. If you have some stuff you are not proud of Just don't worry it you already repented if you are not proud of it and have stopped or wish to stop. Just between you and me for now, Those religions and there books are the mark of the beast taken in hand and transferred to forehead too (memory). This is how and why the masses fall. I know to much to join you I am a real God Chosen,
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 27, 2018 19:50:14 GMT
Hi everyone I am a new member. By my name I guess you know where I stand. Just so you know it is not a choice i made to be a Prophet or as God said Chosen it was his. I have accepted of course. But I am not going to get into this a lot. God is real! I have seen my coffee magically reheated in my cup as i held it in my hand. I have heard him speak. Devils are real too I know they have the ability to use what we call magic and often times convince man that they are God. So he is real even if you can not just take me at my word that fact wont change. That said I totally get this point of view and why so many think he is not real. Unlike Religious freaks want to teach you. You are not in any trouble for not taking his existence in blind faith. He actually considers that a good choice! When he is ready for you to know him you will. Oh word to the wise for you Atheist. Do not fall to those religions. They are NOT OF GOD but a reflection of truth woven to lead down the path to evil. They follow hell and death best. Just be good it matters. If you have some stuff you are not proud of Just don't worry it you already repented if you are not proud of it and have stopped or wish to stop. Just between you and me for now, Those religions and there books are the mark of the beast taken in hand and transferred to forehead too (memory). This is how and why the masses fall. I know to much to join you I am a real God Chosen, When and what exactly convinced you He is real?
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Post by prophettom on Nov 27, 2018 20:11:27 GMT
It was not my first encounter as you might think. Ill be brief. I had made some life choices and oddly enough they were not to follow religion. However it was also in my mind that I had no right to lead people away from God so if asked i would tell them yes. Because even though I had no proof of him yet I knew he may still exist and just decided i was not one who would make it so he had not revealed himself to me. A few days later i think three this was April 15th or so 2013. as i revisited those choices I took peace in them.
Than it happened God said. " YOU HAVE CHOSEN, AND YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED. YOU HAVE CHOSEN WELL AND YOU HAVE BEEN CHOSEN." Than came a song to my ears it praised God for his choice in me. It talked about what a honer it is. Than a few others Spoke to me so that no other heard just as God had with me. So they stopped talking and i went on my way. The way things flowed i had decided it was just a great prelude to a great song. But a few weeks later I was working in a home laying floors. The thought of that song came to mind. So i started to give it serious thought this time.
Than i asked the question that lead to me being with no doubt God is real. I was asking God are you real do you know how hard things are here? Are you Alive do you even care? He answered and said. " I AM ALIVE AND I DO CARE."
Next is was like I was yanked from my flesh. and pages of red writing flashed before my eyes to fast to read and in a language i think was Hebrew. When that was over i came aware of my flesh again. His hand steadied me as i regained my strength and my legs could hold me again it all happened so fast I did not even fall as i was out of my flesh. once i was steady God added these words. "THAT IS YOUR MESSAGE.......SPREAD THE WORD." That did it I knew. There is a memory of a white room and leaning against a counter in it.
But i think the coffee reheating in my cup magically as i held it is better proof for others. I do have two witness of that event. You just cant go through all i see and hear as a Chosen with out knowing it is all real. God devil struggle for evil to take a foot hold in holy things to work against God. It is all real. I have had Satan come to me as God and caught him red handed many times doing so.
That was it I know for a fact. But I totally get why so many people say cant be when they see the hipocracy found in holy books! God does have somewhat against them for the evil they spread thinking they do a good works in the evil they do.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 27, 2018 20:25:13 GMT
But I totally get why so many people say cant be when they see the hipocracy found in holy books! God does have somewhat against them for the evil they spread thinking they do a good works... Can you explain ^ this part more. But I had my own experiences and always knew He existed since I was little. And forgot to mention. Welcome to Arktos! You might also get to meet a member called Clovis here later on, he had some experiences as well!
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Post by prophettom on Nov 27, 2018 20:58:57 GMT
Oh this gets into Bible stuff. Okay look to Noah for a moment. Right after the flood he built a alter and gave a burnt offering to the lord. At that time just before the Rainbow came to be God not only promised to never flood the world again but spoke to Noah the word That he had decided to give forgiveness to man. The lord and God are different by the way. So did forgiveness come to man by the spoken word of God or the cross? Lets look.
Okay than lets jump to Moses For Jesus said that that law he gave man was of God and holy and a law of peace. So We get this guy and the Lord our God (Satan) came to him in the form of a burning bush. No one saw it was the sign of a God of hell till now. Than had him cast his iron rod to the ground and it became a snake/serpent. The same sign Eve and Adam fell to. So i looked at that law and judgment. with one god telling me I must follow them and brought me before a god council to take that matter up with me. The other telling me I need not follow that law. As i read that law and judgment I saw evil a lot of it. It empowered the Lord to take out the inequities of those who hate him to the third and forth generation. So to take out the punishment of your sins to the Grand children and great grand children. That is not holy and never will be. Than I saw them empower slavery and favoritism in judgments for those who owned slaves. It said do not kill than gave you a guideline of when to kill! Hipocracy!
So Satan finally admitted to me trying to play God with me that he handed the law to Moses personally and looked Moses in the eye. He admired Moses because he had no fear of him. I moved to the story of Jesus. Because how is it a man can be a Messiah when he empowers such hipocracy as holy. When i saw he was a false Messiah I knew we had a home run. I saw Jesus empower evil by saying the Ten commandments are the law of God and peace, I saw him say let he who is evil be evil still. So empowered great evil twice now. Than I learned this.
Exodus 21:20-21 20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
This is just one of many examples why I keep telling you that book you think holy is evil. This says in case you did not catch it that if a man own a slave and smite him and kill him that so long as no one notices for a day or two no crime happened. The law he gave you after he freed his people was to teach you enslaving people and killing them at will and not talking about it was holy? So a man frees his people from slavery makes a home in the wilderness somewhere then goes out creating wars and taking slaves with laws that made him holy to do it even though he knew it was wrong! That book has evil all over it and those stories are the stories of a Dragons victory over man not him leading you to salvation but to slavery and death full of injustice!, What if God decided you were to be a slave for all eternal life in a law as unjust as this?
(revelations Chapter 5 verse 6) 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(=Jesus) having seven horns (=churches) and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.(=the angels of those churches)
(Revelations Chapter 13 verse 1,3) 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea [ Sea = Prophecy], having seven heads [seven heads = the churches] and ten horns [Horns = Ten commandments], and upon his horns ten crowns {crowns= False holy}, and **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.**
3 And **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(=Jesus) and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
6: **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(Jesus) 3: **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(Jesus) 1: **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.**(false prophet)
Revelations 16: 13-14 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Who was it that taught you these three? The Father, The Son, and The Holey Spirit? It was Jesus and his followers that teach these things. See what it says about them? THEY ARE DEVILS AND FALSE PROPHETS! PERIOD! YOU CANT HIDE FROM THIS!
Oh I seen God almighty fall too!
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 27, 2018 22:43:29 GMT
Oh this gets into Bible stuff. Okay look to Noah for a moment. Right after the flood he built a alter and gave a burnt offering to the lord. At that time just before the Rainbow came to be God not only promised to never flood the world again but spoke to Noah the word That he had decided to give forgiveness to man. The lord and God are different by the way. So did forgiveness come to man by the spoken word of God or the cross? Lets look. Okay than lets jump to Moses For Jesus said that that law he gave man was of God and holy and a law of peace. So We get this guy and the Lord our God (Satan) came to him in the form of a burning bush. No one saw it was the sign of a God of hell till now. Than had him cast his iron rod to the ground and it became a snake/serpent. The same sign Eve and Adam fell to. So i looked at that law and judgment. with one god telling me I must follow them and brought me before a god council to take that matter up with me. The other telling me I need not follow that law. As i read that law and judgment I saw evil a lot of it. It empowered the Lord to take out the inequities of those who hate him to the third and forth generation. So to take out the punishment of your sins to the Grand children and great grand children. That is not holy and never will be. Than I saw them empower slavery and favoritism in judgments for those who owned slaves. It said do not kill than gave you a guideline of when to kill! Hipocracy! So Satan finally admitted to me trying to play God with me that he handed the law to Moses personally and looked Moses in the eye. He admired Moses because he had no fear of him. I moved to the story of Jesus. Because how is it a man can be a Messiah when he empowers such hipocracy as holy. When i saw he was a false Messiah I knew we had a home run. I saw Jesus empower evil by saying the Ten commandments are the law of God and peace, I saw him say let he who is evil be evil still. So empowered great evil twice now. Than I learned this. Exodus 21:20-21 20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. This is just one of many examples why I keep telling you that book you think holy is evil. This says in case you did not catch it that if a man own a slave and smite him and kill him that so long as no one notices for a day or two no crime happened. The law he gave you after he freed his people was to teach you enslaving people and killing them at will and not talking about it was holy? So a man frees his people from slavery makes a home in the wilderness somewhere then goes out creating wars and taking slaves with laws that made him holy to do it even though he knew it was wrong! That book has evil all over it and those stories are the stories of a Dragons victory over man not him leading you to salvation but to slavery and death full of injustice!, What if God decided you were to be a slave for all eternal life in a law as unjust as this? (revelations Chapter 5 verse 6) 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(=Jesus) having seven horns (=churches) and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.(=the angels of those churches) (Revelations Chapter 13 verse 1,3) 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea [ Sea = Prophecy], having seven heads [seven heads = the churches] and ten horns [Horns = Ten commandments], and upon his horns ten crowns {crowns= False holy}, and **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.** 3 And **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(=Jesus) and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 6: **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(Jesus) 3: **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(Jesus) 1: **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.**(false prophet) Revelations 16: 13-14 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Who was it that taught you these three? The Father, The Son, and The Holey Spirit? It was Jesus and his followers that teach these things. See what it says about them? THEY ARE DEVILS AND FALSE PROPHETS! PERIOD! YOU CANT HIDE FROM THIS! Oh I seen God almighty fall too! So you are quoting some parts of bible (like revelations) as factual information and saying other parts (like about Jesus and His followers) are fictional? So one book is like both true and false?
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Post by prophettom on Nov 27, 2018 23:53:55 GMT
Oh this gets into Bible stuff. Okay look to Noah for a moment. Right after the flood he built a alter and gave a burnt offering to the lord. At that time just before the Rainbow came to be God not only promised to never flood the world again but spoke to Noah the word That he had decided to give forgiveness to man. The lord and God are different by the way. So did forgiveness come to man by the spoken word of God or the cross? Lets look. Okay than lets jump to Moses For Jesus said that that law he gave man was of God and holy and a law of peace. So We get this guy and the Lord our God (Satan) came to him in the form of a burning bush. No one saw it was the sign of a God of hell till now. Than had him cast his iron rod to the ground and it became a snake/serpent. The same sign Eve and Adam fell to. So i looked at that law and judgment. with one god telling me I must follow them and brought me before a god council to take that matter up with me. The other telling me I need not follow that law. As i read that law and judgment I saw evil a lot of it. It empowered the Lord to take out the inequities of those who hate him to the third and forth generation. So to take out the punishment of your sins to the Grand children and great grand children. That is not holy and never will be. Than I saw them empower slavery and favoritism in judgments for those who owned slaves. It said do not kill than gave you a guideline of when to kill! Hipocracy! So Satan finally admitted to me trying to play God with me that he handed the law to Moses personally and looked Moses in the eye. He admired Moses because he had no fear of him. I moved to the story of Jesus. Because how is it a man can be a Messiah when he empowers such hipocracy as holy. When i saw he was a false Messiah I knew we had a home run. I saw Jesus empower evil by saying the Ten commandments are the law of God and peace, I saw him say let he who is evil be evil still. So empowered great evil twice now. Than I learned this. Exodus 21:20-21 20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. This is just one of many examples why I keep telling you that book you think holy is evil. This says in case you did not catch it that if a man own a slave and smite him and kill him that so long as no one notices for a day or two no crime happened. The law he gave you after he freed his people was to teach you enslaving people and killing them at will and not talking about it was holy? So a man frees his people from slavery makes a home in the wilderness somewhere then goes out creating wars and taking slaves with laws that made him holy to do it even though he knew it was wrong! That book has evil all over it and those stories are the stories of a Dragons victory over man not him leading you to salvation but to slavery and death full of injustice!, What if God decided you were to be a slave for all eternal life in a law as unjust as this? (revelations Chapter 5 verse 6) 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(=Jesus) having seven horns (=churches) and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.(=the angels of those churches) (Revelations Chapter 13 verse 1,3) 1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea [ Sea = Prophecy], having seven heads [seven heads = the churches] and ten horns [Horns = Ten commandments], and upon his horns ten crowns {crowns= False holy}, and **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.** 3 And **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(=Jesus) and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 6: **stood a Lamb as it had been slain,**(Jesus) 3: **I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;**(Jesus) 1: **upon his heads the name of blasphemy.**(false prophet) Revelations 16: 13-14 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Who was it that taught you these three? The Father, The Son, and The Holey Spirit? It was Jesus and his followers that teach these things. See what it says about them? THEY ARE DEVILS AND FALSE PROPHETS! PERIOD! YOU CANT HIDE FROM THIS! Oh I seen God almighty fall too! So you are quoting some parts of bible (like revelations) as factual information and saying other parts (like about Jesus and His followers) are fictional? So one book is like both true and false? It is the truth about what devils have done to deceive man. So yes the hardest part is the only part that reveals this truth. Devils influenced John to do it this way so it would remain hidden forever. But God revealed it.
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Post by prophettom on Nov 28, 2018 0:08:59 GMT
Not exactly no. I am saying what these books are is more of work of fallen angels. The event and prophesy in them have come true because for the Most part it records the work of fallen angels and when you see them in their true light they are proof of How man was deceived. Devils can cast miracle. But the path they lead you to is always death and embarrassment and shame when you come before God claiming your faith in these things. God will know you are marked in the beast. They are devils lessons and not of God. God showed me how to reveal it. So it is real but it is not true path to peace yet it is when you see how you were deceived in them. Than they become the seal of God. But you have to see how they are used to deceive in all things of this earth!
So they were real Prophets and they events did happen. Devils insured that the things they told man came true. But they were also false prophets because there teaching will not lead to true peace if you follow those laws and rules.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Nov 28, 2018 0:48:50 GMT
Not exactly no. I am saying what these books are is more of work of fallen angels. The event and prophesy in them have come true because for the Most part it records the work of fallen angels and when you see them in their true light they are proof of How man was deceived. Devils can cast miracle. But the path they lead you to is always death and embarrassment and shame when you come before God claiming your faith in these things. God will know you are marked in the beast. They are devils lessons and not of God. God showed me how to reveal it. So it is real but it is not true path to peace yet it is when you see how you were deceived in them. Than they become the seal of God. But you have to see how they are used to deceive in all things of this earth!
So they were real Prophets and they events did happen. Devils insured that the things they told man came true. But they were also false prophets because there teaching will not lead to true peace if you follow those laws and rules.
You've already contradicted yourself several times. First you said "I have seen my coffee magically reheated in my cup as i held it in my hand." then right after this you said "Devils are real too I know they have the ability to use what we call magic". So, going by what you plainly said, devils used magic to reheat your cup of coffee. And now you are saying "Devils can cast miracle"... so which is it? Magic or miracles?
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Post by prophettom on Nov 28, 2018 0:53:30 GMT
Not exactly no. I am saying what these books are is more of work of fallen angels. The event and prophesy in them have come true because for the Most part it records the work of fallen angels and when you see them in their true light they are proof of How man was deceived. Devils can cast miracle. But the path they lead you to is always death and embarrassment and shame when you come before God claiming your faith in these things. God will know you are marked in the beast. They are devils lessons and not of God. God showed me how to reveal it. So it is real but it is not true path to peace yet it is when you see how you were deceived in them. Than they become the seal of God. But you have to see how they are used to deceive in all things of this earth!
So they were real Prophets and they events did happen. Devils insured that the things they told man came true. But they were also false prophets because there teaching will not lead to true peace if you follow those laws and rules.
You've already contradicted yourself several times. First you said "I have seen my coffee magically reheated in my cup as i held it in my hand." then right after this you said "Devils are real too I know they have the ability to use what we call magic". So, going by what you plainly said, devils used magic to reheat your cup of coffee. And now you are saying "Devils can cast miracle"... so which is it? Magic or miracles? I am saying they are the same. it is not self contradictory no more than Vagina or pussy they are the same thing. You can try to pick me apart as much as you want. But you wont be able to run from the truth I have shared with you. Who knows which heated my Coffee. Both God and Devil could have. Point is these stories are a lot more than Myth.
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