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Post by fschmidt on Oct 13, 2018 18:37:22 GMT
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 13, 2018 20:02:52 GMT
If you take all the text into account then it is obvious that God didn’t want the Israelites to mix with people of other religions, not races. You even point out how Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The context of Deuteronomy 7 is God telling them not to marry people those peoples because they were of other religions and worshipped false gods. It had nothing to do with race. I think Jews of Judaism today that believe in racial purity misinterpret it that way, but then again I’ve heard of black Jews, Asian Jews, European Jews, etc. Today there are Jews in India even, and one of the stories in the Bible(Book of Esther) is about Jews in India shrug
I think to say Ezra changed the OT to make it racist is to cherry pick the text, because ifnthat had been anyone’s intent, they would have changed more than a few verses about marriage and would have taken verses like the following out,
Leviticus 19:33-34
[33] And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
[34] But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 16:13-14
[13] Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
[14] And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates.
And pretty much all of Deuteronomy 24
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 13, 2018 20:49:44 GMT
If you take all the text into account then it is obvious that God didn’t want the Israelites to mix with people of other religions, not races. You even point out how Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The context of Deuteronomy 7 is God telling them not to marry people those peoples because they were of other religions and worshipped false gods. It had nothing to do with race. Good, so far we agree. Esther is about Persia. Anyway, even if Jews come in different skin tones, Judaism still is primarily based on traced ancestry, not religion. So it is following the vision of Ezra, not Moses. Ezra's ability to change the text must have been limited since he was not the only scribe. So I assume he made the changes that he could get away with, but we really don't know how much he changed. And I never claimed that "Ezra changed the OT to make it racist". I only mentioned him changing the OT to show how dishonest he was. His racism is clear enough from his actions as chief priest. |
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 13, 2018 21:06:03 GMT
If you take all the text into account then it is obvious that God didn’t want the Israelites to mix with people of other religions, not races. You even point out how Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The context of Deuteronomy 7 is God telling them not to marry people those peoples because they were of other religions and worshipped false gods. It had nothing to do with race. Good, so far we agree. Esther is about Persia. Anyway, even if Jews come in different skin tones, Judaism still is primarily based on traced ancestry, not religion. So it is following the vision of Ezra, not Moses. Ezra's ability to change the text must have been limited since he was not the only scribe. So I assume he made the changes that he could get away with, but we really don't know how much he changed. And I never claimed that "Ezra changed the OT to make it racist". I only mentioned him changing the OT to show how dishonest he was. His racism is clear enough from his actions as chief priest. Well first you have to prove that that is in fact the vision of Ezra and that he did in fact actually change the text. But even if Ezra did change the text and that was his vision, his agenda didn't go through too well because the actual purview of the text still exists. |
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 13, 2018 22:52:07 GMT
Well first you have to prove that that is in fact the vision of Ezra and that he did in fact actually change the text. But even if Ezra did change the text and that was his vision, his agenda didn't go through too well because the actual purview of the text still exists. Of course nothing like this can be proven. I am just presenting my argument. Ezra's vision was fully realized in Judaism. The Old Testament text still exists but people are too stupid to understand it, so it is mostly irrelevant. The Old Testament is ultimately a tragedy, the story of the rise and fall of a great religion. |
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Post by Διαμονδ on Oct 14, 2018 12:22:30 GMT
Without a doubt, the Torah is against racism..but I have my doubts that Ezra was a racist because he's one of the authors of the Old Testament's Canonical Text. Obviously, those some other rabbi who lived after Ezra were a racist and a Jewish chauvinist and they are authors of this.
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 14, 2018 21:34:17 GMT
Without a doubt, the Torah is against racism..but I have my doubts that Ezra was a racist because he's one of the authors of the Old Testament's Canonical Text. Obviously, those some other rabbi who lived after Ezra were a racist and a Jewish chauvinist and they are authors of this. One thing that Judaism gets right is that the Torah (first 5 books) is the core scripture and the rest of the Old Testament is supplementary material. This supplementary material is included because it is important, not because it is true. For example Job and Ecclesiastes give almost opposite views but both are included because both views are important. |
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PISTON1246
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Post by PISTON1246 on Oct 16, 2018 20:59:06 GMT
Without a doubt, the Torah is against racism..but I have my doubts that Ezra was a racist because he's one of the authors of the Old Testament's Canonical Text. Obviously, those some other rabbi who lived after Ezra were a racist and a Jewish chauvinist and they are authors of this. One thing that Judaism gets right is that the Torah (first 5 books) is the core scripture and the rest of the Old Testament is supplementary material. This supplementary material is included because it is important, not because it is true. For example Job and Ecclesiastes give almost opposite views but both are included because both views are important. Why do you say Job and Ecclisiastes give almost opposite views? |
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 17, 2018 0:40:50 GMT
Why do you say Job and Ecclisiastes give almost opposite views? Job represents faith and submission. Ecclesiastes is quite cynical and questions everything. |
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PISTON1246
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Post by PISTON1246 on Oct 17, 2018 0:43:49 GMT
Why do you say Job and Ecclisiastes give almost opposite views? Job represents faith and submission. Ecclesiastes is quite cynical and questions everything. Different books with different topics. Why do you say Ecclesiastes is "cynical"? |
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 17, 2018 0:49:36 GMT
Different books with different topics. Why do you say Ecclesiastes is "cynical"? Same topic - how to live life. How would you describe Ecclesiastes if not cynical? |
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PISTON1246
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Post by PISTON1246 on Oct 17, 2018 0:55:10 GMT
Different books with different topics. Why do you say Ecclesiastes is "cynical"? Same topic - how to live life. How would you describe Ecclesiastes if not cynical? I need to read through it again... I don't remember it suggesting that ALL people lack sincerity and integrity. |
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 17, 2018 0:58:23 GMT
I don't remember it suggesting that ALL people lack sincerity and integrity. It doesn't say this. (After all, it wasn't written in a time as degenerate as ours.) But just try to feel the tone of the writing. That is what I am referring to. |
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PISTON1246
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Post by PISTON1246 on Oct 17, 2018 1:03:36 GMT
I don't remember it suggesting that ALL people lack sincerity and integrity. It doesn't say this. (After all, it wasn't written in a time as degenerate as ours.) But just try to feel the tone of the writing. That is what I am referring to. What do we know about the time that it was written? In Genesis, we read that God wiped out Humanity, except for 8 people (Noah, his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives). |
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 17, 2018 1:15:13 GMT
What do we know about the time that it was written? Not much. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes#Title,_date_and_author Note - this moronic modern forum software can't get this link right. May the authors be washed away in a great flood. I love that story and I wish I could see a repeat performance of modern humanity (with me in the boat, of course). |
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