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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 12, 2018 5:08:44 GMT
Ok, so I did a little study about how Muhammed started Islam and had some questions. Here's the story I found....
So the guy was a merchant and thought about spirituality a lot. So he had a normal job as most of us and focused on being a good person as I hope most of us do too. Next, he decided to go meditate in a cave. Why a cave? Was he a caveman? Seems odd but whatever to each his own. Then supposedly an angel named Gabriel appeared and told him to practice and teach compassion, honesty, and justice. And at that time women had few rights so he tried to make them equal before God with more rights. Then since he thought he was actually going mad, his wife convinced him he was a prophet and was his first convert. Kind of odd someone else telling you that you're a prophet since prophets knew they were and told others they were. But for Muhammad the prophet stuff worked backwards I guess. Shrug Anyway, so since he was illiterate and couldn't read or write he spoke everything by word of mouth mostly...and to his family. Not until much later did his followers write the Koran.
My questions. 1. Who picks an illiterate person to spread a message from God? That's like me using my kindergarten student over my high school student to deliver important announcements which I'd never do unless I wanted to embarrass myself. Moses knew measurements and could write.
2. If he was supposed to spread equality with males and females then why no equality? Women are killed in honor killings and not men. Where's the equality in this? I need to see hundreds or more dead male bodies.
3. Angel Gabriel told him that their god is the same one of Jacob and Jesus. So if their god is the OT god then their writtings would be together. All the OT prophets had their messages delivered and all written in OT. Where is the book of Muhammad in OT? After Micah somewhere?
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 12, 2018 7:59:18 GMT
1. Jesus really messed up when he failed to write his ideas down. At least Muhammad lived in a culture that had a tradition of memorizing verses, so his stuff was preserved. So it seems like in this respect Muhammad did better than Jesus.
2. Honor killings are a violation of the Quran. They are part of Arab culture, not Islam.
3. My answer is that the Quran is "the OT for dummies" and since most people are dummies, the Quran wins. But the Islamic answer would be that the OT was corrupted so a new revelation was needed.
By the way, here is a good movie about the origin of Islam:
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 12, 2018 8:03:27 GMT
1. Jesus really messed up when he failed to write his ideas down. At least Muhammad lived in a culture that had a tradition of memorizing verses, so his stuff was preserved. So it seems like in this respect Muhammad did better than Jesus. 2. Honor killings are a violation of the Quran. They are part of Arab culture, not Islam. 3. My answer is that the Quran is "the OT for dummies" and since most people are dummies, the Quran wins. But the Islamic answer would be that the OT was corrupted so a new revelation was needed. By the way, here is a good movie about the origin of Islam: Jesus had people write for Him while He was here and after. If you read the book of John it clearly says that Jesus was telling John what to write as He was telling Peter to mind his business and to follow Him and not be concerned with John writing. Then there's Paul who wrote after Jesus left but Jesus told Him what to write too since He appeared to Him and stuff. Arab? Then I could be wrong. So no killings of spouses in Islam at all?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 12, 2018 8:09:19 GMT
1. Jesus really messed up when he failed to write his ideas down. At least Muhammad lived in a culture that had a tradition of memorizing verses, so his stuff was preserved. So it seems like in this respect Muhammad did better than Jesus. 2. Honor killings are a violation of the Quran. They are part of Arab culture, not Islam. 3. My answer is that the Quran is "the OT for dummies" and since most people are dummies, the Quran wins. But the Islamic answer would be that the OT was corrupted so a new revelation was needed. By the way, here is a good movie about the origin of Islam: Jesus didn’t come here to spread His own ideas, He came to do the will of the Father in heaven. And do you think every time Jesus or the apostles quoted scripture they had a scroll in front of them(they clearly didn’t)? Islam came out of Arabia. In the same sense you believe the OT was corrupted, how is it that the Quran wasn’t seeing that it wasn’t written down until much later? How can you be sure it didn’t change by word of mouth? And how can you be sure that the OT was corrupted? Do you think God would let that happen to His words even after He said He would preserve them for ever? Which is stronger? The will of man or the will of God?
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 12, 2018 8:17:42 GMT
Jesus had people write for Him while He was here and after. If you read the book of John it clearly says that Jesus was telling John what to write as He was telling Peter to mind His business and to follow Him and not be concerned with John writing. Then there's Paul who wrote after Jesus left but Jesus told Him what to write too since Hee appeared to Him and stuff. Where is this in John? Also, academics say the Gospels were written decades after Jesus died. Is this right? And Paul, well, I don't really trust Paul. Actually the death penalty is almost outlawed in the Quran. It is only barely tolerated in the case of murder (Quran 2:178-179) and is otherwise outlawed (Quran 4:92-93). So you may wonder why Islamic countries have the death penalty for so many things. The answer to this, as to almost everything that people do, is that people are morons.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 12, 2018 8:26:55 GMT
Jesus had people write for Him while He was here and after. If you read the book of John it clearly says that Jesus was telling John what to write as He was telling Peter to mind His business and to follow Him and not be concerned with John writing. Then there's Paul who wrote after Jesus left but Jesus told Him what to write too since Hee appeared to Him and stuff. Where is this in John? Also, academics say the Gospels were written decades after Jesus died. Is this right? And Paul, well, I don't really trust Paul. Actually the death penalty is almost outlawed in the Quran. It is only barely tolerated in the case of murder (Quran 2:178-179) and is otherwise outlawed (Quran 4:92-93). So you may wonder why Islamic countries have the death penalty for so many things. The answer to this, as to almost everything that people do, is that people are morons. Right here. Starts with Peter bothering Jesus and Jesus telling him to mind his business as John (the beloved desciples of Jesus) wrote. John 21 20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.” 23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?” 24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. Church did nothing. Jesus' apostles wrote what He wanted them to write. Shrug
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 12, 2018 8:26:58 GMT
Jesus didn’t come here to spread His own ideas, He came to do the will of the Father in heaven. And do you think every time Jesus or the apostles quoted scripture they had a scroll in front of them(they clearly didn’t)? I agree that Jesus was very well educated. But don't you think everyone would be much better off if he wrote down what he believed? Christians assume that Jesus's message came from God, not his mind, in the same way that Muslims believe that Muhammad's message came from God, not his mind. Regardless of the source of the message, it is nice to have the original message, not other people's recollections from decades later. The Quran was committed to memory from the beginning, so I think it was better preserved than the OT. Also I recently discovered that the biggest prick in the OT, namely Ezra, actively tried to change the earlier OT content and succeeded in some areas according to Jewish knowledge.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 12, 2018 8:40:00 GMT
Jesus didn’t come here to spread His own ideas, He came to do the will of the Father in heaven. And do you think every time Jesus or the apostles quoted scripture they had a scroll in front of them(they clearly didn’t)? I agree that Jesus was very well educated. But don't you think everyone would be much better off if he wrote down what he believed? Christians assume that Jesus's message came from God, not his mind, in the same way that Muslims believe that Muhammad's message came from God, not his mind. Regardless of the source of the message, it is nice to have the original message, not other people's recollections from decades later. The Quran was committed to memory from the beginning, so I think it was better preserved than the OT. Also I recently discovered that the biggest prick in the OT, namely Ezra, actively tried to change the earlier OT content and succeeded in some areas according to Jewish knowledge. That’s just it though, Jesus wasn’t here to seek His own glory. You’re telling me that Muhammad did? Muhammad also thought he was demon possessed, but his wife convinced him he was a prophet. There’s quite a difference between being demon possessed and being a prophet, not sure how that could be mixed up so easily. I’m not too sure where you’re getting that information about Ezra either. What you said he did isn’t recorded in the OT, but then you think it’s corrupted anyway shrug
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 12, 2018 8:54:03 GMT
That’s just it though, Jesus wasn’t here to seek His own glory. You’re telling me that Muhammad did? No. If God happened to talk to me one day, I would consider that important enough for me to write down what He said. Here: blogs.timesofisrael.com/many-rabbis-agree-that-ezra-changed-the-torah-text/And this fits perfectly with Ezra's character. He twisted the Torah in his book, and his Books of Chronicles are a horrible distortion (mostly by omission) of the history recorded in the rest of the OT.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 12, 2018 9:23:44 GMT
That’s just it though, Jesus wasn’t here to seek His own glory. You’re telling me that Muhammad did? No. If God happened to talk to me one day, I would consider that important enough for me to write down what He said. Here: blogs.timesofisrael.com/many-rabbis-agree-that-ezra-changed-the-torah-text/And this fits perfectly with Ezra's character. He twisted the Torah in his book, and his Books of Chronicles are a horrible distortion (mostly by omission) of the history recorded in the rest of the OT. But you just told me Jesus should have written down His own thoughts. Didn’t Muhammad write down his own thoughts? Where is an account of Ezra’s character? And to be frank, the three examples they give in the article are quite petty, and one of them isn’t even correct(1 Kings). There’s nothing deceiving about the changes made, unless you think God is subservient to man and God shouldn’t avenge His people. I would have expected some major deception with how you’re painting Ezra out to be.
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Post by Διαμονδ on Oct 12, 2018 10:06:17 GMT
Supposedly Muhammad befriended an Arian or Nestorian monk(or was familiar with their teaching then in the middle East in his time) Then composed his own heresy.
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PISTON1246
Full Member
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Post by PISTON1246 on Oct 12, 2018 20:36:48 GMT
I read that the Islamic god took control of Muhammad and made him write the Quran.
The organization of the text and sequence of stories in the Quran is not like the Torah.
I doubt the Torah and Quran came from the same god, even though the Quran states that they did.
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 12, 2018 20:57:14 GMT
I read that the Islamic god took control of Muhammad and made him write the Quran. The organization of the text and sequence of stories in the Quran is not like the Torah. I doubt the Torah and Quran came from the same god, even though the Quran states that they did. I doubt it too!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Oct 13, 2018 0:46:26 GMT
Supposedly Muhammad befriended an Arian or Nestorian monk(or was familiar with their teaching then in the middle East in his time) Then composed his own heresy. There's also theories out there saying that the catholic church created Islam.
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Post by fschmidt on Oct 13, 2018 4:49:05 GMT
But you just told me Jesus should have written down His own thoughts. Didn’t Muhammad write down his own thoughts? Let me correct this. Jesus should have written down his message (whatever its source). Muhammad couldn't write but he got his message memorized so it was preserved. I wrote a full explanation here: www.mikraite.org/How-Ezra-created-Judaism-tp1868.html
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