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Post by x on Jun 29, 2018 17:56:20 GMT
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. What's the argument against this?
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jun 29, 2018 18:19:20 GMT
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Post by x on Jun 29, 2018 23:36:09 GMT
Ephesians 2:8-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. 10 For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].
It is simply explaining that God saved us by grace and faith and not of our own doing and works, however this passage explains works even better.
James 2:18 Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 But someone may say, “You [claim to] have faith and I have [good] works; show me your [alleged] faith without the works [if you can], and I will show you my faith by my works [that is, by what I do].” James 2:18 Amplified Bible (AMP)
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 30, 2018 0:15:17 GMT
Faith without works is dead. This is scripture. You need works to produce fruit which backs up your faith. I can go all day saying I'm a doctor but if I don't have proof then it's just a saying I do to make myself feel better only. Shrug
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 30, 2018 0:27:15 GMT
Scripture says God is Love. God proved it with the cross because He died for us. He had actions to back up what He is saying with His words. And as a Christian who loves Him with all their mind, body, and soul will know this commandment and do it as proof of their love too. John 14:15 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. This verse is proof that those going to heaven will have works if they love Him.
This reminds me of this song actually.
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Post by x on Jun 30, 2018 0:40:19 GMT
Amen! I need to listen to some more Christian music but idk who to listen to
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 30, 2018 0:52:58 GMT
Amen! I need to listen to some more Christian music but idk who to listen to There's a music section here and some post Christian songs if you want to look through it
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Post by x on Jun 30, 2018 1:01:49 GMT
alright
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Clovis Merovingian
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Post by Clovis Merovingian on Jun 30, 2018 1:13:48 GMT
Ephesians 2:8-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. 10 For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].
It is simply explaining that God saved us by grace and faith and not of our own doing and works, however this passage explains works even better.
James 2:18 Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 But someone may say, “You [claim to] have faith and I have [good] works; show me your [alleged] faith without the works [if you can], and I will show you my faith by my works [that is, by what I do].” James 2:18 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Didn't say I subscribed to the argument. Just that you asked what the argument against it was and this is the common one. Anyways I tend to believe that good works are the proof of saving faith. A good tree will produce good fruit etc. That is why I often fear for my own soul. I live in habitual sin that I cannot overcome and do not know the way back to to God or to him in the first place if my salvation as a child was false.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Jun 30, 2018 15:50:21 GMT
James 2:17-24,26 KJV [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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clem
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Post by clem on May 13, 2019 12:55:19 GMT
A Lutheran pastor recently explained the phrase as a conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism.
As he put it, it's EITHER grace through faith alone, OR grace through good works, and I suppose, faith.
In this telling, Luther went for the "Faith alone" end of things. (Hence existentialism.) Supposedly this in reaction against idea of "buying one's way into heaven" with the purchase of indulgences (good works).
It can be put as just an historical question. Seems a bit confused and effed up as here presented.
Kierkegaard emphasized the "faith" end in his discussion of Abraham and Isaac. Obviously God can make bad jokes.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 13, 2019 13:03:08 GMT
A Lutheran pastor recently explained the phrase as a conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism. As he put it, it's EITHER grace through faith alone, OR grace through good works, and I suppose, faith. In this telling, Luther went for the "Faith alone" end of things. (Hence existentialism.) Supposedly this in reaction against idea of "buying one's way into heaven" with the purchase of indulgences (good works). It can be put as just an historical question. Seems a bit confused and effed up as here presented. Well, if the bible says faith without works is dead then you must have works to be a real Christian in the faith. Otherwise you obey people and follow them on what they say instead of what scripture and God says. And you can't buy indulgences or good works because it's a life long process. Your faith must also bring the fruit of good works if you really have faith. Like a good person will do good things daily and a criminal who's a bad person will not care about doing good daily but will focus on doing bad all his life. Or how do you think regarding this?
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clem
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Post by clem on May 13, 2019 13:04:15 GMT
Sounds like on balance, you'd be a Protestant.
I don't think "what the Bible says" is going to clarify much, necessarily. Not that I know "what the Bible says," other than that it's often contradictory and was written over a period of many centuries.
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Post by Elizabeth on May 13, 2019 13:25:03 GMT
Sounds like on balance, you'd be a Protestant. I don't think "what the Bible says" is going to clarify much, necessarily. Not that I know "what the Bible says," other than that it's often contradictory and was written over a period of many centuries. Protestant indeed. Wouldn't be anything else Well, we have the biblical verse that says faith without works is dead. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James:2:17 But the confusion happens in another verse when they don't read the full chapter. Because it says in another verse that you are saved by faith but if you keep reading further it explains that faith produces works and that a person is not saved by works alone without faith that he would boast. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians:2:8 And just 2 verses later... For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians:2:10 So faith alone which is backed up with actions is what it's saying. So then you can say you're saved by with and actions or by faith with actions or real faith that has actions. Either way actions must be present somewhere. I am not sure how Luther differered with Catholics on this though because didn't he still propose something foreign like they with the indulgences that they suddenly started doing?
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clem
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Post by clem on May 13, 2019 15:19:01 GMT
Kierkegaard made big deal out of Abraham and Isaac. Apparently, K's point was that faith is above everything else -- even to a point where it would be ordinarily viewed as criminally insane. (Where "good works" figures in that picture, I don't know.)
Kierkegaard, of course, was a Protestant. I gather theologians have mixed feelings about him, but he's certainly not without influence.
Same Lutheran pastor told me that Catholicism is Aristotelian and Protestantism is Platonic, in the historical/intellectual derivation of the finer points of their respective theologies. I only dimly perceive what he's talking about, based on my extremely minimal knowledge of ancient and medieval philosophy.
I suppose to fully understand, one would need to first know ancient philosophy, then the development of Catholic theology at least up to Luther's time, and then read a lot of Luther and figure out where he got his ideas (apart from, or in addition to, "divine inspiration," if any.)
I'm looking for some book that would short-cut all that. One biography of Luther I did try, was unsatisfactory. All I got was, that he was quite horrible to a hundred thousand rebelling peasants, and harbored a truly murderous hatred of Jews. So, not altogether a great guy in the "good works" department.
P.S. Wikipedia has item about this, titled "Sola fide." It says: "also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine commonly held to distinguish many Protestant churches from the Catholic Church, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Oriental Orthodox Churches." Etc............
"Martin Luther elevated sola fide to the principal cause of the Protestant Reformation, the rallying cry of the Lutheran cause, and the chief distinction of the Lutheran & Reformed branches of Christianity from Roman Catholicism. John Calvin, also a proponent of this doctrine, taught that "every one who would obtain the righteousness of Christ must renounce his own." According to Calvin, it is only because the sinner is able to obtain the good standing of the Son of God, through faith in him, and union with him, that sinners have any hope of pardon from, acceptance by, and peace with God."
ETC....
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