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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 7:58:49 GMT
www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/johns-story-why-i-left-eastern-orthodoxy-for-evangelicalism/“I would have caved had I not begun reading the Bible the Baptists had given me,” John says with a smile. “As I began reading Scripture, I understood Jesus to be the only way to God. I realized I did not need the Orthodox church or even a priest to be my mediator, for Jesus was the mediator between me and the Father.” Though John does not use the term, it is clear from his testimony that he had acquired an unshakable belief in the Reformation doctrine of sola scriptura. “I realized that the Bible was the authority, even over the Church. The Bible was true, and the Church with all its traditions and rituals was wrong.” What do those who are members of the Orthodox Church think of this and the rest of what is said in the article?
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 10:10:15 GMT
The Romanian went from the authority of man to sola scriptura and away from the doctrines and commandments of men(the church fathers). Take your faith away from men, and but it in God and His Word! Do you call faith in the teachings of the Fathers of the Church by believing in people? But if it is as objective as possible, then it must be noted that the Protestants have their own fathers (Luther, Calvin and others), any Protestant denomination has its own - traditions- The founder of the Baptist John Smith baptized himself, then even his disciple suspected him of blasphemy. The famous American Baptist preacher Billy Graham was baptized three times. Interenso where does the Bible say about it? Hmm ... My goodness man, when did I ever say my authority is Calvin, Luther, or any other??? Don’t strawman me
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 10:17:45 GMT
Wasn't Jesus a man too? They were men, so what? You, me and everyone else are. According to Bible we're all His children, so we have elder brothers and sisters, they help us to understand. How would you interpretate parent's words without any help? We're all users of language that hasn't been build by us; all the notions are under historical circumstances, so there's no rex enter to everything by yourself. That's why the help is always needed. I agree that Bible has more authority (it's obvious). But, does it make any complication to get an advice from someone else on interpretation?.. I guess not. Well, bible says Jesus came from heaven which differs Him from just a plain human. But yeah of course we must learn what the bible says and stuff. But not all learn it as children since not all parents are religious anyway. But I mean if they learn it from parents then yeah parents should teach it correctly too. You can't be a teacher if you don't know the material you are teaching of course! If it was like this in life then oir university teachers could just be anyone...even a teenager who is feeling smart suddenly xD And if we come to learn the bible as adults and not kids then we usually don't need parents (?). Would be kind of weird (?) to have parents sitting in class with you in university explaining what the teacher is saying . But as adults we all know how to read a book to learn. Sure, if we're stuck we can ask a qualified or real teacher for help. So if a Christian is teaching what Jesus taught only then he's a great teacher because he's passing down the origional material. But if he's teaching someone else's Christian belief then it's not the real one. Matthew 28:20 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[a Yes, thanks, Elizabeth. I almost agree with you in all of your arguments. But, do you object that parents are the ones who teach you many things? If you do, than how can you explain all your notions in your lexical baggage? You, me, and everyone else have been learning everything through cultural glasses. So, yes, you're right that this is my choice to pick up on of the religion (I agree with that in Protestantism). But, I can't stand why are you saying that parents are sitting in the same class? It seems very solid argument, and at the same time, it shows that there's no barriers of interpretation: 1. My wish is to hold an opinion of my friends. I trust them. 2. My friends are Fathers. It's simple. Holding Fathers as teachers is the tradition, not undermining Bible's words.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 10:19:35 GMT
Jesus says that the one to whom the church does not have authority is like a pagan or tax collector! (Matthew 18: 15-17) Jesus is a pagan and tax collector? Church has no authority over Him. O.o A church is just a group of people. Jesus gave His word to help such a community. Diamond wanted to say that the deniers of His words are scums
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 10:19:41 GMT
The Romanian went from the authority of man to sola scriptura and away from the doctrines and commandments of men(the church fathers). Take your faith away from men, and but it in God and His Word! Do you call faith in the teachings of the Fathers of the Church by believing in people? But if it is as objective as possible, then it must be noted that the Protestants have their own fathers (Luther, Calvin and others), any Protestant denomination has its own - traditions- The founder of the Baptist John Smith baptized himself, then even his disciple suspected him of blasphemy. The famous American Baptist preacher Billy Graham was baptized three times. Interenso where does the Bible say about it? Hmm ... Billy Graham was also a horrible dad. He neglected his kids and one kid almost never saw him and had no clue what Billy looked like. Then when he came home the kid was like who is this guy? facepalm And Smith seems odd. I can't tell you his problem but he had one surely.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 10:21:00 GMT
Do you call faith in the teachings of the Fathers of the Church by believing in people? But if it is as objective as possible, then it must be noted that the Protestants have their own fathers (Luther, Calvin and others), any Protestant denomination has its own - traditions- The founder of the Baptist John Smith baptized himself, then even his disciple suspected him of blasphemy. The famous American Baptist preacher Billy Graham was baptized three times. Interenso where does the Bible say about it? Hmm ... Yes. Exactly. They are always escaping on this. It is something that confuses me more than the other things. I really don’t care for anything any of the men said that diamond pointed out. Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura. My authority is God’s word, the Bible, this book here
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 21, 2018 10:21:31 GMT
Well, but you can not deny the fact that they are sources of Protestantism on a historical and spiritual plane
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 10:25:47 GMT
They’re only a church if they’re comprised of men, women, and children, and only if their authority is God’s word which isn’t open for interpretation. You can avoid an interpretation. By the way, did you say that all the men are liars? This means that you're liar too, and I can trust your words. So how will you tell me what is it true, or not? I never said all that I said is truth or that you should listen to me because I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m pretty sure I said over and over now that God’s word is the authority and that it isn’t open for interpretation because there is only one truth and that one truth is God’s word.
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 10:27:50 GMT
Well, but you can not deny the fact that they are sources of Protestantism on a historical and spiritual plane Take away the labels and what do you have? Right and wrong. God is right, men are wrong. Easy Peezy lemon squeezy
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 10:33:33 GMT
unknown No they do teach us things. Parents can teach us to speak, to read, and to write. But teachers in school teach this too. Parents also teach us what they say is correct. Meaning some can teach bad things too. Like some don't mind their kids doing drugs or if they have bad manners or something. So some just don't care too much and can neglect their kids. Some have even abandoned their kids or thrown them away somewhere as a baby. So, parents are supposed to be good and loving to us and teach us correctly. But sometimes not all do sadly. And from parents it could even be best to stay away. Yeah, it shouldn't be forced on you either. Some parents might force a religion on their kid or even a career. That's not nice. Not all kids can be doctors or even want to be doctors like parents want them to be I just meant as adults we don't need parents all the time for interpretation because we're old enough to read and we know the language. I don't know who brings mom to class to help them understand what the teacher is teaching xD You mean 2 teachers can teach 2 different ways of doing brain surgery for example? I'd be scared if some new teacher is teaching it his way while everyone is teaching it the normal way. Someone could die with this new teaching!
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 10:38:24 GMT
Jesus is a pagan and tax collector? Church has no authority over Him. O.o A church is just a group of people. Jesus gave His word to help such a community. Diamond wanted to say that the deniers of His words are scums Well, yeah if Jesus didn't say it then I agree!
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Post by DKTrav88 on Apr 21, 2018 10:42:08 GMT
As for interpretation, that comes down to comprehension, which is something that Jesus Himself talked about
Matthew 13:13-16 KJV [13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. [14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: [15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. [16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
There have been and will be people who could not and cannot comprehend God’s word, but will instead put their faith in men and follow the doctrines and commandments of men. Many have been and will be lead astray by ravening wolves.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 10:43:50 GMT
Yes. Exactly. They are always escaping on this. It is something that confuses me more than the other things. I really don’t care for anything any of the men said that diamond pointed out. Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura. My authority is God’s word, the Bible, this book here Solid argument. Nuff said. It is the essence of sola scriptura's views, isn't it?
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Post by Διαμονδ on Apr 21, 2018 10:52:18 GMT
Лилия напиши мне в приват! Мне лень думать на английском скажи мне или спроси у Девида где пророк Иеремия в Библии предсказал про 30 серебряников(Евангелия) об этом говорит...я то знаю много таких мест которые люди без Предания не смогут обяснить! Люди которые верят слову Бога должны уметь различать противоречия в Писании.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 10:56:50 GMT
unknown No they do teach us things. Parents can teach us to speak, to read, and to write. But teachers in school teach this too. Parents also teach us what they say is correct. Meaning some can teach bad things too. Like some don't mind their kids doing drugs or if they have bad manners or something. So some just don't care too much and can neglect their kids. Some have even abandoned their kids or thrown them away somewhere as a baby. So, parents are supposed to be good and loving to us and teach us correctly. But sometimes not all do sadly. And from parents it could even be best to stay away. Yeah, it shouldn't be forced on you either. Some parents might force a religion on their kid or even a career. That's not nice. Not all kids can be doctors or even want to be doctors like parents want them to be I just meant as adults we don't need parents all the time for interpretation because we're old enough to read and we know the language. I don't know who brings mom to class to help them understand what the teacher is teaching xD You mean 2 teachers can teach 2 different ways of doing brain surgery for example? I'd be scared if some new teacher is teaching it his way while everyone is teaching it the normal way. Someone could die with this new teaching! Well... As @dktra88 said about he doesn't hold Luters, Calvins, etc as teacher - I believe him. Yes, this argument seems to be very good, because I can reinterpretate his words into this: 'As soon as good interpretation appears (in my mind, or in someone's mind) it will be good'. Also, it can be reinterpretated to 'I understand just as myself'. But, as I repeated it lots of - there's no way to avoid an interpretation, because our mind is constructed to be intersubjective thinker which works of making info to ideas through concepts. But, Orthodoxy can the argument on it (according to Patrology): A. Fathers were closer to Jesus times; B. Their teachings were approbation through time; A&B means - they have an authority in the questions of Bible. I don't uphold any authorities, but meanings of Fathers seem to me pretty normal, because they were MEN, not aliens, or monkeys, and their teachings as then as in present are good. But, I don't want to say that everyone must to subordinate it, I want to say that teachings of Fathers are normal. You can read them, or to avoid do this: this is your will, but as in math, I can read Euclidus, Pascal, or Leibnitz and this reading will be just a great help. Parents are the same. They responsible for you conceptual vision in your childhood, because the role of you parents (or babysitters, at least) is very important. It doesn't break that I'm not a unit to be free-thinker, it's the case that words of your parents, as the words of sages have weight. Be always on your own is not a way, because it leads to differentiation of teaching of Jesus as history of Protestantism represents it good. So, you can hold everything you want, and understand everything as you want, but it is not a way out, it is not a right way.
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 21, 2018 10:58:32 GMT
Лилия напиши мне в приват! Мне лень думать на английском скажи мне или спроси у Девида где пророк Иеремия в Библии предсказал про 30 серебряников(Евангелия) об этом говорит...я то знаю много таких мест которые люди без Предания не смогут обяснить! Люди которые верят слову Бога должны уметь различать противоречия в Писании. Sorry just multitasking. Will do. Prophet Jeremiah said 30 what of Eugene? I'm confused or falling asleep
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